Criminal Records Bureau Enhanced Disclosures and the ACPO "step down model" for the Police National Computer

...do you think it is likely that 'stepped down' convictions will still show on an enhanced CRB?

I have three that were 'stepped down' in 1996 and have to complete an enhanced CRB soon for my employer, who doesn't know about my past.

Please help, I am worried sick that my past will come back to haunt me over 20 years later )-:

Comment for Marjorie, I have the same problem as you. I was convicted 14 years ago and I understand that this can now be conisdered spent however will it showe up on a CRB check???

ANY ONE HELP ME?
Being given mixed messages...was given (or had no choice but to accept) a caution at age of 22, now 38. been working in nursery school office for a year - same employer for 3 yrs previous- never requested I do a crb form but now am being asked to do an enhanced 1 has been asked for as working around children. Fair dos everyone has one from the kitchen staff to the Headteacher! Dataprotection chap says - don't declare it - its not a conviction and after 16 yrs its definitely deleted - check on PNC came back clear. phoned local station - comes up as archived and says 'caution' no details. I'm like Marjorie worried sick it will come up because its an enhanced check.
Many people on websites say - 'don't worry - you've not had dealings with police - no recurrance - forget it. It won't show. Others say - be honest - tell your employer. Dataman says - don't worry - don't tell them. PNC advisors say - it 'could' come up - up to me what I do, etc, etc. Its terribly annoyed and giving me (and others) anxiety that is totally unecessary. Why do professionals connected with the police force itself give out contradictory information? I said to dataman @ police HQ I'll give your name etc as the person who advised me not to say anything if anything comes up - he said fine - cos it won't. Really, I just want to be told - don't declare it on crb form because a caution itsn't a conviction so one is not lying. 2. It won't show up because the Chief OFficer person will deem it totally unnecessary to be shown as its 16 yrs old and for something totally unrelated to violence, abuse, etc. I'm a law abiding citizen. Unfortunately with 20:20 vision if I knew then at 22 what I know now. I could have had the police done for harrassment, both sexual and racial. So, is there anyone there who can help me OUT HERE? I've emailed the Chief at my local station and guess what - She hasn't got back to me...and is she meant to me the person who makes the almighty decision of whether a caution from 16 yrs back is declared on the crb enhanced check? Some people have had cautions and not further connections with police after 6 yrs I read and nothing appeared on enhanced crb check for them. Apologies for long windedness, obviously anxiety is seeping through my words. Many thanks in advance to who responds.

In 1970, when I was 17, I was convicted of possession of drugs (LSD)and sentanced to probation. This was before the Misuse fo Drugs Act 1971 and in those days drugs were not classed 'A, B & C' as they are today. I have no other convictions.

I have never needed to disclose the offence to employers until now but may need to go through a Stndard Level CRB disclosure soon. Should I disclose the conviction or can I safely assume it is stepped down and won't show up on the Standard CRB check?

In july 2001 I was given a police caution for actual bodily harm following a provoced scuffle I have not been in trouble with the police prior too or since that date.I applied to migrate to canada in september of 2006 as i had an offer of employment .I was told in 2001 that this caution would remain on file for 5 years so was suprised to see it on my police search ,as the caution was spent i enclosed the police check with my application for immigration as requested.On november the 30th i received a letter from the canadian immigration office refusing my application for a work visa and enrty into canada based on this caution.If this caution had been removed as i was informed would be the case in 2001 then i feel that my work visa would have been granted. please can anyone advise me how to get this information removed from the subject access report.I understand that the law cahnged from the 31st of march 2006 but feel strongly that this law should only stand for cautions etc given from that date and that all previous caution information should be removed as informed by the officer who gave it to me .I therefore feel that the opportunity of living in a new country with my family has been cruely denied me due to this change in the law

I was followed and watched by the police for quite some time on suspicion of being a drug dealer. I wasn't and am not. I was an addict at the time.

Anyway, obviously, no arrest -no communication at all in fact. I only knew they were watching me cos a nurse at the hospital told me so.

Would the information they collected on me be on their computer? If so, what can I do about geting it removed?

what a nightmare this is for people who did something stupid years ago and yet it follows you round like a bad smell. 30 years ago i stole a can of hairspray and was caught by the store detective, me and my friend paniced and tried to run, store/d had hold of us and i pushed her away with my hand that was actually holding a bag of crisps. you guys no the outcome.... yes a shoplifting charge and ABH. i have written to tony blair, the home office, the police station were i was arrested and the beloved CRB. but there is no chance of a reprieve, sad really because ive nearlly completed a childhood & youth studies degree (6 years wasted) but hey lets look on the bright side and think of all the work we are giving to our EU cousins, who by the way the majority havent been checked. and if my memory serves me right you dodnt need a CRB check if you are a nanny, au-pair or babysitter. mmmmmmmm

I received a caution a few years back for being drunk and disorderly on New Years Eve!! Anyway, I would really like to pursue a career in Law, but i am very concerned that this caution is likely to be a hindrance. I spoke to someone in the Public Access Department( the people who you apply to for infor held on PNC). THE GIRL I SPOKE TO CONFIRMED THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET CAUTIONS DELETED FROM THE PNC, YOU HAVE TO WRITE IN WITH AS MUCH INFOR AS POSSIBLE, she did confirm that if 5 years has elapsed, that you can apply to have details of your caution removed, as the police don't always do it.

I was cautioned for shoplifting in 1999 when I was a 21. I was young and stupid and certainly won't do anything like that again! Now I am 28 and I just want to put the past behind me, I am pursuing a career in law. Had a Subject Access check from PNC, came back clear but am worried sick about the CRB standard disclosure for when I qualify...anyone knows what I should do??? Thanks!

I found something quite useful (if it is true!)Records containing cautions

GENERAL RULES FOR CRIMINAL RECORD WEEDING ON POLICE SYSTEMS

8. If there are cautions but no convictions on the record and no further cautions have been recorded for a period of five years, the record will be deleted, except where the caution is accompanied by an 'offends against vulnerable person' information marker.

Does that make any sense?
See:

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/weeding_rules_version5_nov_2000.doc

I graduated in July 2004, and in November 2004, I recieved a caution through recklessness,I could not take it anymore from a particular person(I WAS ONLY HUMAN)I feel what really upsets me, is I was the victim in this case, which turned around to make me look like the criminal. I feel because I had convictions from my past (WHICH ARE ALL SPENT)I feel that the police discriminated me, I explained why would I go out of my way to get in trouble by the police, when I have worked hard to turn my life around,this was the reason I did a degree is to turn my life around, they didnt care, they made me sign this piece of paper, and said your getting a caution,they didnt tell me what the caution was for I wish I had asked because if I had of known I wouldnt have sign that piece of paper and at that point I would have asked for a solicitor.I started applying for work and was ask for CRB checks when it came through, I couldnt believe what the caution was for, and because of this I have been unable to get employment the work I want to do is working with vulunerable groups. I feel that my degree as gone to waste and I feel what was the point.I feel like a fool, what can I do? I have been very depressed over this,I dont know what to do help me please

Good to read posts from people in a similar situation. What a mess this whole system that 1 small moments mistake can throw so many people with degrees or so much to give to waste. I have a police caution and a first class honours degree to waste. I want to be a teacher but im terrified of my caution on the CRB. so many sleepless nights. No one can understand this pain. God Bless you all. Everyone deserves a second chance after all.

I recieved a caution in 2001 at age 21 for shoplifting. I graduated in 2005 and have just started a new job wking in a childrens centre. I didnt declare the caution on my application form as when it asked if I had any convictions... which I havent I replied no.... not realising that underneath it stated long windedly that you had to disclose information about cautions. Yesterday my Employees recieved my CRB check which had the caution listed on it. I was called into the office as they wanted to know why I had not declared it. I stated the problem that I had had with the form and that I had mentioned the fact that I had had a warning by the police to my current boss. Rather than the actual caution they were more concerned about the fact I had not disclosed it. They understood that people did stupid things and I Luckily I managed to persuade them to keep me in post. It is actually illegal to discriminate against people with irrelevant cautions / convictions if indeed they are spent. My employees informed me that if were to apply for any future job, it is very important to be honest and just explain. They went on to say for example, if someone was suffering postnatal depression or grieve etc, it would not at all be fair to discriminate against them for something they may have done in that certain low point of their life. Be honest guys, and explain the reasons behind it. In my case it was because I was out with a group of friends, drunk and really quite unaware of what i was doing. Everyone has there reasons, just learn from it and dont worry about it affecting your careers, it wont! Good luck

I sympathise with everyone who is being made to worry about old mistakes that we should be able to forget about and move on from. I have a caution that is about 8 years old. It seems to be recommended that the police delete this from my record after 5 years although, from what I can gather, this does not always happen. I am about to be subject to a CRB check. Can anyone tell me exactly who I can get in touch with to ensure that this data has been correctly deleted?

It's a shame, the system appears to be failing us all. In 1992 at age 17 I made the biggest mistake of my life by committing a stupid crime. I was arrested by the police and accepted a caution. After spending the best part of a night in the cells it made me seriously reconsider the way my life was going. I made a drastic change to my life and my values. I started working as a cleaner for a property company. I worked like a dog and took every chance of promotion and education working my way up from cleaner, to security, to reception, to marketing, to project management and I put my old ways far behind me. In December 2005 I finally reached the top and was promoted to board level as a Director. Finally all my hard work had paid off, after 14 years of 8am until 9pm, working my butt off, weekends and late nights.... Then the company's Director of Security decided to do a sneaky beaky (old boy network) check on me with his daughter's husband. Who as I recently found out is in the Police force. After that he started dropping comments in conversation about previous convictions 'arrests' and 'cautions' to the point when I knew beyond all reasonable doubt that he knew my past. I had no alternative but to quit. Work had become at best uncomfortable and on occassion I was the 'silent joke'! I felt that I had lied to my bosses even though they never asked me about it in any questionaire or employment form. I was made to feel like dirt over a mistake I made at 17 years of age (technically as an adult) a very long time ago...I'm still looking for a job and fear that news is on the wire in the property community as I have made it through several interviews to final candidate status but keep getting turned down at the very last minute. I am fortunate to have a wonderful wife who's an emotional rock for me and fortunately earns enough to support us both (albeit not without a strain for us both and humilliation for me). Without her I would probably reoffend out of pure anger against a system that just doesn't work the way it should. The one thing I've learn out of this lesson is that if you've got a previous caution be upfront about it but don't expect to make it big for long because while there are written rules, the unwritten rules and old boy network always prevail...

please help me i am worried sick i have been with same employer for nearly 10 years within different departments currently work in admin within a college ages 11-16 i got caught shoplifting in 03 goods worth approx £2.50 which i deeply regret my employer has asked me to fill in a crb form i have only been working in this college just over 2 years i am sure they have done a police record on me before i started this employment but i have declared to my employer of having a criminal record i have not been in trouble before this incident or any thing after. I believe i got a caution for this incident which i believe stays on my record for 6 years will this show up on my record and could i loose my job? Please advise

PLEASE COULD YOU ANSWER THIS SOON AS POSS

"The system held by the CRB is known as a PNC Extract. The extract contains basic identifying details such as name and date of birth of persons included on the PNC. The extract does not contain any conviction information"

If the Extract does not contian any conviction information, how exactly the CRB checks your criminal records???

hi, sorry t ogo off track, but i have an enhanced disclosure that is clear (even tho i did get cautioned a few times many years ago) and have just applied for a usa visa,do they use the same system as the crb chaecks?
Thanks in advance

I had a warning for harrassment in 2005 I now want to work with Children as I am desperate to become a teacher. Will this come up in the check as it was a warning? Please answer asap am worried!

@ LJ - have you phoned the Criminal Records Bureau help line and asked them the hypothetical question "I have a friend who ... etc." ?

CRB Contact Channels page:
http://www.crb.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=422

No, not yet, I asked a friend of a friend who is a headteacher and she said she wouldn't be fussed if it came up so fingers crossed!

I was arrested in 2004 on suspicion of sexual assault. Something which i certainly did not do. I was never charged or even questioned. Can anybody give opinion as to whether this would show up on an enhanced check. Surely it would pass the relevance check. I have one coming up and should it show up i fully intend to take legal action. Any thoughts ?

[via email]:

Hi.

I just tried to post something on your website, asking a question and was not allowed to do so.

The internet does not work properly all the time.

I was cautioned in 2004 and would like to know when this will no longer be shown on a CRB check. Can you advise please? I contacted the police and they were unhelpful. They just said my record would remain for the rest of my life.

[...]

Thanks.

Karen [...]

That does seem to be the current policy, (see the "step down model" links in the article above) depending on the severity of the the offence, but regardless of charges or actual guilt.

You should contact the CRB helpdesk for more information regarding your personal specifics.

http://www.crb.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=422

well i have just finished my PGCE and started a job as a teacher for supply work in the school that i i will be working at. my CRB check is due soon and i am worried sick. i recieved a warning/caution last year in October for theft which occured in the previous year i havent disclosed this info on my form because im so scared. Will it show up on my enhanced disclosure. please reply asap.

Hi, from what I have read it does seem that what you have done in the past does indeed come back to haunt you in a big way.I have yet to do a crb for my employee of 20yrs (nhs) but I did however declare my offences at interview, only to be told "don't worry about that you were only a young lad then" I'd actually had a turbulent 3yr period and was getting into allsorts of problems with the local constabulary.I also have another job with the "private sector". This employee asked me to do a crb check which I did and I again declared that I had had a series of run ins with the law. Luckily the boss of this outfit had known me for several years in the nhs and told me not to worry about it. So I am at present still employed by them! Great I hear you cry so what is your problem? My problem is that I have just heard that all employees in the Trust that I work for will be asked to complete a crb. The trouble is the people that I initially told about my criminal record have all left due to one reason or another, so I have no one to back me up. My current manager of about 7 yrs has no idea of my past and I would quite like to keep it that way as they are also a personal friend outside of work. Although my offences are over 20 yrs old I know that they will rear there ugly head yet again and could not only jepordise my lively hood but also several good relationships. What should I do?

hi

i got the sack from my last job as an oxygen delivery driver for failing a crb check. I was cautioned when i was 21 for possessing cannabis and ecstacy. im now 27, and always figured that my caution would have been deleted after five years. That obviously hasnt happened. Im now working abroad and intend to become a teacher within the next couple of years. Im way past the heady days of being a reckless student. Can someone put up here in a step by step fashion, how one in this situation can get his cautions removed. Im sure theres many in the same situation as id say the majority of students have experimented in thier youths. Thank you for your help.

jeff
just say you only had apuff but didnt inhale it works for mps

Hi everyone

Like some of you i'm worried sick at the moment. I was convicted and fined for a minor shoplifting offence 22 years ago. I was told under the weeding laws that my conviction would be weeded out and deleted after 10 years at the most.

Well guess what i did a subject access and the bloomin thing is still there. I believe it should have been weeded out by now and hope NACRO will help me do that

I've applied in clearing to do a PGCE after getting a good undergraduate degree, i didn't disclose the conviction because i didn't think it would still be there, silly me !!!

The details posted back from the NIS were the full conviction details. However, they stated the system may or may not have some of this information about me but didn't clarify exactly what. They said whatever was there could be deleted if it implied anyone else.

As you can imagine i'm very confused, they've picked up on the information but won't clarify 100% if its been deleted or not, so i don't know what to disclose to the education authority because i don't know what if anything will show up

Then to top everything off my local police sent me their part of the subject access clarifying that they didn't have any informationa about me that they were obliged to enclose

So please can you help me, the law isn't clear and i'm so confused about it all, should i wait to see if anything is picked up on the CRB check and in the meantime contact NACRO about my rights and the weeding laws

Please help

Jane

Jane - 26 August 2007

I was convicted of assault in 1997, the date of the assault 1996. I was a minor at the time and that has showed up on my crb. I'm gutted. Although it's a more serious offence than yours it was just a playground fight at school. I thought it cleared after 2 and half years (being a minor), so i never mentioned it but 11 years later and it's back to haunt me!! I love my job but topmorrow will probably be my last day when they get their copy of the crb disclosure.

Delli

I completely 110% relate to what each of you has said. I'm starting a Masters course in Forensic Psychology in two weeks time, but three and a half years ago I received a caution for damage to public property and possession of cannabis. It was a stupid drunken incident and completely out of character, and I was actually told by the police at the time that it would be wiped off my record after five years. However after reading this article and ringing various organisations (including the CRB), it's clear that this is not the case. As there is understandably some confusion over the procedure, I'll relay what I have learnt here:

At present, the CRB do not have DIRECT access to the Police National Computer. However, current legislation does allow them to request all offence details on the PNC relating to an individual. However this will soon be changing in favour of a 'step down' model (possibly as of October this year, according to May's edition of the CRB 'Disclosure News'). Offences will no longer be deleted (unless you reach 100!), but will be 'stepped down' after a certain period of time that varies according to the nature of the crime. When an offence is 'stepped down' only the police can see the infomation, and they are not 'obliged' to release it to the CRB for inclusion on the disclosure form.

Now this is where things get really ridiculous. Apparently the senior police officers will inform the CRB of a stepped-down offence if it is 'relevant' to the job being applied for. The exact criteria used in this so-called 'relevance test' is far from clear, and this is exactly the information that we need to know. For example, I KNOW that my offences will be 'stepped down' in 10 years time. But I DON'T know whether the police will consider them 'relevant' to the type of positions I will be applying for (although I can certaintly take an educated guess).

We are all in the same boat here, and it really upsets me to think that so much potential talent could be going to waste because of a stupid mistake. If anyone has found out any other information on this new *ahem* 'process' that I have not included here, please post it so that others can try to get there head around this fucking mess.

I recieved a police caution for shoplifting when I was 12,(7 years ago). I have got a job in a school that I will start when my crb comes through. I am losing sleep over this. I have to write to the school to explain the offence and it makes me feel the a criminal. I want to be a teacher and I am worried that something so insignificant like this will effect my future teaching career. I think the law should change for minor offences.

This site has worried me quite a lot i recently had a big argument with an ex girlfriend who was suicidal and a bit crazy. she ran off screaming in the middle of town and i had to hold her still to not create a fuss i was very drunk at the time and this all got misinterpretted and a nearby p[olice officer arrested me. my girlfriend obviosuly did not press charges or anything as i had doen nothing worng though because i was drunk i received a caution for assualt i am now really worried as i am going to uni to study a very ahrd course that this is all goin to come up again in the future. i dotn plan opn working with children or anythign though i plan on working in the competitive finance and accoutning industry is this caution going to affect that?

Alex, I worked in finance for four years and I have not been asked to disclose any offences. Even if you are asked, as the alleged offence is not relevant to a position in finance and accountancy, it is unlikely to affect your application as long as you clearly explain the circumstances on the application form and emphasise the fact that you were not convicted. In your case, I really don't think this will affect your future career. Hope this helps.

I'm 16 and got a caution for shoplifting a year ago. I work as a kitchen assistant in an old people's home and they recently did a CRB check on me. Will I be fired?
PLEASE HELP!!!

The UK government and its police force are in deed abusing the Human Rights of its own citizens by introducing legislation such as the CRB without creating a system to prevent abusing human rights by these systems.

By reporting things such as police investigations about family matters even if there are no convictions and even if the total case rejected by the Crown Court due to lack of evidence raised by some one against other one, by reporting these in the CRB is an abuse. This may destroy that individual and his family and may render him unemployed. Is this what the British government under Gordon Brown Labour Party and its Police forces are doing.

The aim of the CRB is to protect the community from criminals and not to report anything unless it is serious for the community. More than that in the US legislation and even in the UK there must be a time scale for reporting such things which should not be more than 3-5 years for non-convictions or investigation and if that individual had no farther records then it should be strike off his file and his CRB.

More important the Data Protection Act 1998 Section 10 prevent processing any data for third party if it is causing damage to the person such as damaging his profession of course taking in consideration the type of things included in CRB and its time scale.

Every one got such concern should write to the CRB commissioners mentioning the Data protection act, the human rights and the abuse resulted from the CRB. Also should contact his MP and Human Right orgnizations.

Indeed the CRB should change to consider the time scale of things and should not continue to report things until death! This is against the most basic human rights.

i was caution in 2001 for shoplifting with my friends. I have now finished university and became a register nurse. I am now concern if i can get a job. I need to know if CRB check is going to strike it off after 5 years?
PLEASE HELP ME!!!

Michelle, unfortunately your CRB check will definately show the caution you received. This means you will have to declare it on your application form.

Learndirect has some useful information on how to approach this matter on the application form and in the interview. Check out:

http://www.learndirect-advice.co.uk/helpandadvice/exoffenders/

The information on the above website is a bit outdated, and doesn't include info on the new step-down procedure. However it does give good advice on how to approach the matter of your criminal record when applying for work.

Hi,

I got a caution for travelling with a child travelcard last year. It's been about a year now. I intend on pursueing a career in law but want to know my prospects regarding the law society. I am actually really worried about this. So worried...you would not know. It means the world to me. By the time i am to apply to law society for membership, just over two and a half years will have passed from the caution. Does anyone know my prospects of becoming a lawyer? Im studying my degree at the moment.

It seems that the Information Commissioner has ruled in some cases to order the deletion of some old minor criminal records, rather than the "step down model".

However,the Police seem to be wasting public money and are appealing against this to the Information Tribunal.

See The Guardian:- Police told to delete old criminal records

It may well be worth appealing to the Information Commissioner if you have minor cautions or convictions from a long time ago, and nothing since.

My partner has just had a disclosure done when applying for a teaching job. A caution for shoplifting seven years ago showed up. she has never been in trouble with police for anything else, and was in her early 20's when it happened. I think this is unfair, that one person can decide whether a caution is relevant or not based on the age of the caution, and the type of offence.

I was given a police caution 2 weeks ago unfortunately for fighting i broke a fight up and got punched by a man who had been fighting so i hit him back and when he tripped up i kicked him now considering i am a woman and he was a big man i cant see how i done much harm. I was very drunk and after being in the cells over night and in desperate need of a fag I dont remember what was said to me except that I was cautioned I have been in contact with the police since to ask them to explain what the caution means and if it will show upon a CRB check as I do volunteer work helping families with under 5s and i also help out at my daughters school with trips etc but they have not got back to me .Also when i tried to file assault charges on the man who hit me I was told I was too drunk to be taken seriously but obviously not too drunk to have a statement taken and a caution given.I am a married woman with 2 children my youngest being autistic and having severe learning disabilities I would never harm a child but now I dont know if I can volunteer anymore.Anyone know what how I would find out for sure.

I have worked in social housing for nearly 13 years and am a post operative male to female transexual who incidently now passes very well.

Imagine my surprise when an enhanced crb check issued information I have no cautions or convictions making counter allegations of violence against me ( I was the one assaulted) following a hate campaign by neighbours and an attack in the street by a stranger who referred to me as a tranny and then preceded to punch me like a punch bag, despite having an independent witness who saw me being attacked the police chose to release these accusations against me.

I went through the appeals procedure no joy, via the information commissioners office ( waste of space), the police admitted that the information may be inaccurate but its historical so it does not have to be up to date - so where is the relevance to releasing the information, consequently not only did I have to suffer the humilation of disclosing my past leading to more employment discrimination when I did nothing wrong but I had my first permanent job offer at a senior level withdrawn my career destroyed and I am unable to get any job

I have spent 20k so far on legal costs and await whether a QC can help me fight this case because the home office guidelines have not been followed by the met police

For those of you who think it isn't going to apply to more jobs sorry but your misinformed the Safeguarding Vulnerable Persons Act comes in to effect in Summer 2008, all jobs working or voluntary with vulnerable people will require enhanced crb check with all information shown mandatory not voluntary - there was a need for more caution as a result of Soham but I still don't understand why my circumstances which occured as a result of neighbour prejudice when I went from a he to a she, and following botched facial surgery which has now been fixed should be compared to someone who worked as a caretaker for 2 months compared to my career of nearly 13 years.

Don't expect help from your mp or the data protection officer - the court will decide my case. I am now nearly 3 months unemployed too overqualified and unexperienced for other fields, I feel like I was convicted and sent to prison

Shame on this country - vote conservative because brown's government will have most people on the receiving end of malicious allegations out of work

I hope I can sue - my case I have been informed is likely to set a precedent - the police or rather the arrogant met police led by a visibly transexual director of information state that the met police can disclose what information they like - they said I was arrested when I ahve never been arrested and my details should not have been entered on the pnc it just seems very strange that 4 and 3 years down the line two linked incidents as a result of my unique circumstances can be issued - its a concern

I have been told by crb this will appear on every single crb - I assume life

Its not good and its not right

I want to add one thing

The police try to rely on an earlier West Midlands precedent case law 2004 as grounds for releasing allegations against someone working with vulnerable people and told me that should I go to court the court will allow the chief officer to decide these - my case will rest on proportionality, and relevance tests and also medical evidence whick proves that the malicious allegations are lies.

What I will say to any transexual or intersexed person don't report any crime to the Metropolitan Police, they are bigoted and very much against transexual and intersexed individuals - I could not believe it when I saw the notes I reported the incidents as the victims, have an independent witness who saw me being attacked, was attacked on my own doorstep had a neighbour who was warned about harrassment over my gender status at the time and yet I get classed as the suspect and a risk to working with vulnerable people

The notes have clearly and it is clear from the notes been altered - pray Ian Blair gets sacked because with him in charge of the metropolitan police there is no hope for anyone

By the way with regards to the Safeguarding vulnerable people act due in summer 2008 this will apply to any job where there be contact with vulnerable people say cab advice worker, or receptionist in hospital and it will be a criminal offence punishable by 5 years imprisonment if you try to apply or an employer take you on

Your enhanced CRB will release information where it is relevant the only good news for people is there will be a separate organisation taking the power away from the chief officer of the police force to an independent body which will determine whether someone is suitable or not to work with vulnerable people and you can make representations - if barred the bar lasts 10 years but people are judgmental

Moral of the story always get a solicitor and my advice to any ts or intersexed person don't report it to the police they really are bigoted especially the metropolitan police force Lambeth and Tower Hamlets in particular

I want to add one thing

The police try to rely on an earlier West Midlands precedent case law 2004 as grounds for releasing allegations against someone working with vulnerable people and told me that should I go to court the court will allow the chief officer to decide these - my case will rest on proportionality, and relevance tests and also medical evidence whick proves that the malicious allegations are lies.

What I will say to any transexual or intersexed person don't report any crime to the Metropolitan Police, they are bigoted and very much against transexual and intersexed individuals - I could not believe it when I saw the notes I reported the incidents as the victims, have an independent witness who saw me being attacked, was attacked on my own doorstep had a neighbour who was warned about harrassment over my gender status at the time and yet I get classed as the suspect and a risk to working with vulnerable people

The notes have clearly and it is clear from the notes been altered - pray Ian Blair gets sacked because with him in charge of the metropolitan police there is no hope for anyone

By the way with regards to the Safeguarding vulnerable people act due in summer 2008 this will apply to any job where there be contact with vulnerable people say cab advice worker, or receptionist in hospital and it will be a criminal offence punishable by 5 years imprisonment if you try to apply or an employer take you on

Your enhanced CRB will release information where it is relevant the only good news for people is there will be a separate organisation taking the power away from the chief officer of the police force to an independent body which will determine whether someone is suitable or not to work with vulnerable people and you can make representations - if barred the bar lasts 10 years but people are judgmental

Moral of the story always get a solicitor and my advice to any ts or intersexed person don't report it to the police they really are bigoted especially the metropolitan police force Lambeth and Tower Hamlets in particular

@ gymgymie - have you issued a Data Protection Act 1998 Section 10 "data subject notice" against the Metropolitan Police and / or the Criminal Records Bureau ?

This was originally introduced to clamp down on the "post code lottery" credit reference scoring systems which used to be abused so often by the finance industry.

Their treatment of you and your data certainly looks like "damage or distress"

Section 10 Right to prevent processing likely to cause damage or distress

(1) Subject to subsection (2), an individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing, or processing for a specified purpose or in a specified manner, any personal data in respect of which he is the data subject, on the ground that, for specified reasons—

(a) the processing of those data or their processing for that purpose or in that manner is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress to him or to another, and

(b) that damage or distress is or would be unwarranted.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply—

(a) in a case where any of the conditions in paragraphs 1 to 4 of Schedule 2 is met, or

(b) in such other cases as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State by order.

(3) The data controller must within twenty-one days of receiving a notice under subsection (1) (“the data subject notice”) give the individual who gave it a written notice—

(a) stating that he has complied or intends to comply with the data subject notice, or

(b) stating his reasons for regarding the data subject notice as to any extent unjustified and the extent (if any) to which he has complied or intends to comply with it.

(4) If a court is satisfied, on the application of any person who has given a notice under subsection (1) which appears to the court to be justified (or to be justified to any extent), that the data controller in question has failed to comply with the notice, the court may order him to take such steps for complying with the notice (or for complying with it to that extent) as the court thinks fit.

(5) The failure by a data subject to exercise the right conferred by subsection (1) or section 11(1) does not affect any other right conferred on him by this Part.

You can send such a Data Notification Notice letter quoting the Act yourself, at no cost (apart from recorded delivery mail) , to the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis Sir Ian Blair at New Scotland Yard , whose office will then diffuse it down through the vast police bureaucracy, which has to be seen to pretend to be non-discriminatory.

Who is your MP who has not, apparently, been of any help to you ?

Have you contacted your local Metropolitan Police Authority member, who may be more focussed on this sort of issue ?

To wtwu

Thank you for the information - I will take on board what you have said about section 10, but the matter has been investigated by the Information Commissioner who wasn't helpful, and I wrote to the Data Protection Officer at the Metropolitan Police who ignored my representations. Not sure if a section 10 notice was served or not - The argument of the Chief Constable is that their notes are accurate of a police investigation nearly 4 and 3 years ago where I reported the matters as the victim. They say historical information does not have to be accurate to be released as it is in the interests of the wider community that this information is released. The police are meant to use relevance and proportionality as per Home Office Guidance May 2005 in regard to processing Enhanced CRB checks, this hasn't been followed in my case.

My MP is Stephen Ladyman MP for South Thanet ( I come under a small village near Deal in Kent) but because of the boundary changes my MP is not the MP for Dover but the MP for South Thanet, he has tried to help but says it is for the courts to determine its just going round in circles. As of today, a cheque for another 4k goes to my solicitor to instruct the QC that I am seeing, at the end of the month, if I have a case and it appears the police can record what they like against anyone, I will get legal aid if my case is 65% or more. Litigation is very expensive cost to me so far is 24k, the humiliation is huge because as someone who is actually intersexed but had the same medical treatment for someone who is transexual I actually don't have any grief at all now, so you can imagine the embarrassement this caused me when I had to disclose the circumstances to a propsective employer and waited four months only for the job offer to be withdrawn.

Can an MPA member help me as I no longer live in London do you know ????

I will let you know if my case does go to court, it has been difficult finding a barrister to take this case on - no other similar cases have come to a barrister and its difficult getting someone with the knowledge and experience to help - legally - My case was also complicated by medical complications following botched facial surgery for which I have a case that is going to court in the new year - ( I have four titanium screws holding my jaw and chin together) for life so hopefully the two reports will assist me with the police case as well.

As for Ian Blair, I would not trust him with a barge pole, he is inept and incompetent to do his job - if I do have a case its likely to set a precedent as no previous cases have come before the court.

It is a ridiculous situation, I can understand it if I was a threat to vulerable people, but I worked in my field for nearly 13 years, the 2 incidents that arose arose due to my circumstances at the time - due to neighbour harrassment in the first instance and botched medical surgery in the second, I have had no further problems and I have lived in kent for nearly a year - Ian Huntley had a history, my own GP tells me next year they have to report on anyone working with vulnerable people who they have concerns about and that a whole load of people who have had false allegations made against them will be barred from working with other people the system will become unworkable - far from protecting the vulnerable they are blighting innocent people's lives

One more thing, the real reason why I believe my notes were tampered with is that I worked with an organisation in Lambeth ( it was Lambeth Metropolitan Police that issued the information about me over alleged two incidents in Tower Hamlets which had never previously been recorded on my enhanced crb) is that I WHISTLEBLEW on a womens organisation for good reason under health and safety legislation which put single homeless women at risk, and this organisation lost half its supporting people contracts in the london area and many jobs. This organisation is also funded by the Home Office and works closely with the Lambeth Metropolitan Police over sex trafficked women in to britain. I believe my notes were tampered with and it isn't unknown for this to happen because the investigation notes are clearly contradictory and don't make sense saying one thing then the other - the chief executive of this women's organisation is well in with Gordon Brown - it goes to show if you have powerful friends you can destroy people's lives I have emails to confirm my whistleblowing this will be shown to the QC for hopefully my case to go to court

I've been studying this exact area for a while since from the Bichard enquiry and it is a real bad mess.

My main issue is this: When will data protection policies cover 'ALL' systems that record sensitive data such as old conviction data?

Prior to March 2006 it was possible for people with minor convictions (ie those that are non-violent/not drug related/not sexual etc) to have their PNC record 'weeded' provided they hadn't reoffended within certain timelines. Very few people knew about this and there wasn't an 'automated' mechanism to weed these records from the systems.

The way the old weeding system worked was that you applied for your PNC record via Data subject access in the usual way (£10 via a Police station) and as a part of this process, The National Identification Service (NIS) dept. at New Scotland Yard reviewed the PNC record in accordance with the old ACPO weeding rules. If you passed the criteria, the record was weeded and you'd be sent a response back stating 'no information held about you in the Person Record category of the PNC'

However, if your record was weeded, this 'deletion of record' only took place on the PNC itself and does not apply to any 'local' conviction records which the Police hold within their own systems - computerised or paper-based.

What I mean here is say you were convicted of shoplifting 20 years ago in Leicester when you was a juvenile. Prior to 2006, you made a data Subject Access request via your Police station who then send the request to NIS in London. The weeding team deleted your record from the PNC as per the old ACPO rules. However, this does not delete the local Leicestershire Constabulary records relating to your conviction.

Why is this relevant? Well, say you apply for an enhanced disclosure during a recruitment for a Scout Leader etc. Where you thought the information would no longer be available, it actually is because the CRB would send a request to your local force and the force where you was born(in this example Leicestershire) who would disclose this information.

Also, even though people focus on their PNC record, in fact, the conviction details are held on other computer and paper-based systems forever. For example:

* The Court register (freely available - details all convictions from each and every court in the UK)

* The Home Office's Offender's Index (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/offenderindex1.html) - not quite as freely available but can be accessed if you know how!

* The National Criminal Record Archive - a service from the NIS within the Metropolitan police - this service is actively used by government agencies like the Security Services (MI5/MI6) and the Defence Vetting Agency for background checks/enquiries/security clearances. This is a separate historical system which uses update feeds from the PNC and other sources.

The Police and CRB may indeed now be using the new step down model - here's a few interesting reads for those that are interested in this area:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2007-11-13a.350.4

http://www.criminalrecords.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=4743#RETEN

There is one other thing I want to add

Not only does the release of this information not benefit the wider community in terms of relevance given my length of working in this field, but it also puts my personal safety at risk in terms of putting me at risk of violence and harrassment in the community.

I am not 5ft 11 with size 11 feet but 5ft 7, small build and very passable, I feel absolutely petrified by what the Metropolitan Police have done to me.

This country does not tolerate people like me very well unless you pass at the time these two incidents occured I didn't pass because of neighbour harrassment and then medical negligence which caused a lot of problems for me

There is discretion because I found out from a teachers union that the NUT successfully got information removed against a teacher which the police decided to release via the step down model.

In response to BD7447's message about the Step Down model,

I don't have any convictions, or cautions none at all.

I have never been arrested by the police which would be their only justification for entering data on to the PNC about me -
Like I said this is about inaccuate local intelligence data and I only found out about it this year

How can allegations which are clearly malicious be allowed to be put on someone's enhanced CRB without justification it is simply outrageous it really is

Have you or someone you know perhaps been given a Simple Caution, often referred to as a caution, within the last couple of years? If so, and you think it may not have been issued fairly or otherwise inappropriately, please get in touch with me. I can be emailed at
jonathon at orange at fr - that's fr for france
I need some case studies!

I got caught up with a bad crowd last year and was involved with a petty shoplifting case. We got caughtby the shop security, and police were called. Having only had about £2 worth of goods on me, I got to choose whether I went to the station and get it on my criminal record for 5 years or to choose to have an on the spot fine for £80, which would mean no further action. I chose the latter.

I am now having to send off a CRB form for something, and i am really worried. Will this fine come up on my check? or will there be no problems. I have put on the form that i have no criminal record etc... but I am hoping that this is nothing against me?

Thanks in advance.

WTWU

I have seen a leading Human Rights QC and my case is a potential test case - so providing I get funding I have grounds for suing

when i was 15, i recieved a caution and a few hours in a cell for shoplifting. Now at 17 I wish to apply for a nursing course and am worried that the shoplifting offence may cause my application to be denied. I also have recieved warnings from police when drunk, and they took my name and address- does this sort of thing show up on a record at all??

i am confused and angry at the system!

A few people have posted on here, saying things like "I was cautioned/convicted of a certain crime X years ago, will it show up if I apply for a certain type of job?"

Well the answer is that if your job involved working with children or vulnerable adults, or as part of the legal system or higher-level accountancy, then unforunately it will. All cautions and convictions show up on both Standard and Enhanced Disclosures, and as such are never considered spent.

You can check this by going to your local police station, and asking to apply for a copy of your convictions from the Police National Computer. There is a £10.00 charge for this, and they will send you a list of all the information they have on you.

I should also mention that only details of the TYPE of offences are held. So an employer will only be informed of the TYPE of crime rather than the circumstances surrounding it. And all application forms give you the opportunity to list the circumstances surrounding the incident. The employer will therefore only have your version of events. If you get my meaning....

This is in response to Lee's information which is incorrect.

Anyone with an enhanced CRB check will not only have information released about convictions and cautions but any information that is held by the police as a result of investigations taken place.

This does include the circumstances of events but not necessarily your version of events but the police's interpretation.

I am awaiting in my own circumstances a decision to bring a test case against the police in the high court where a biased version of events can lead to long lasting and damaging effects on a career which it has done with me. I have very reasonable prospects of winning my case and should I win the case its likely that other people in my situation will also benefit from a change in the law where the West Midlands precedent did not apply to that particular case

Response to Gymgymgie.

That's interesting you should say that. I was doing voluntary work for a couple of years, and they requested an Enhanced CRB check and provided me with a copy. All it states is the actual offences I was cautioned for. No other information was given regarding the circumstnaces surrounding the incident. The information on these forms really is minimal.

Do you have a copy of your own Enhanced CRB check? If so, I would be interested to hear how detailed the information is on there. Perhaps the difference between us is that you were actually investigated, whereas I was just cautioned?

I just read through your previous posts, and I am absolutely disgusted at how you have been treated. I sincerely wish you all the best in your case against the police, and in your future career.

My question is regarding having a caution removed from a Disclosure cert.

This page (http://www.criminalrecords.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=4743#RETEN) has a downloadable copy of the ACPO's 'GENERAL RULES FOR CRIMINAL RECORD WEEDING ON POLICE SYSTEMS', which quotes:

"8. If there are cautions but no convictions on the record and no further cautions have been recorded for a period of five years, the record will be deleted, except where the caution is accompanied by an 'offends against vulnerable person' information marker."

However, WHO do you apply to to have the caution removed?

Do anyone know?

Thank you for any help in advance.

Hi S.E.

Have you checked that link recently? You can't download their rules on weeding, because this process is now extinct. The rules have changed I'm afraid. Weeding is no more, so your cautions will remain on your record until you are 100 years old. This means that they will show up on any Standard or Enhanced Disclosure Check. If you follow the link you posted, you can download "ACPOS'S Retention Guidelines Incorporating the Step Down Model" which will tell you all about these sickening new regulations.

I'm in the same position as you, and believe me we are not alone. Thousands of people are going to be screwed over by this, and face potential discrimination when applying for a variety of jobs.

I came across a transcript of a parliamentary debate that might be of itnerest to you:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2007-11-13b.350.4

Of particular relevance is the following statement made by Lord West of Spithead:

"My Lords, the position is that the data will be held until the person is 100 years old, unless they are removed in an exceptional case procedure. Any person can ask what data are held on them in accordance with the Data Protection Act and can ask for their data to be removed once they are spent. They are then looked at and they may or may not be removed, depending on a police officer at chief level within that constabulary, who makes that final decision. So data are effectively held there until the person is 100 unless they are removed."

This implies that you can approach a Chief Constable to request that your record is removed once it is considered 'spent'. However it will only be removed in exceptional cases, and believe me when they say 'exceptional' they really DO mean exceptional. Check out this story to see what I mean:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7072241.stm

Sorry I couldn't be the bearer of more promising news. I got cautioned over four years ago for two stupid (on my part) offences. I'm working towards a Masters in Forensic Psychology, where most of the work is in with the police or in the prison system! So this is really going to be an issue for me....

I do not believe it is proportionate and therefore is unethical for the PNC records of persons arrested or cautioned where people have been charged but found not guilty by a court to be kept for an excessive period of time and certainly not archived.
These records should be unrecoverabley deleted from the Police National Computer, the CRB and PNC extract.
I believe that it is proportionate to destroy arrest records 12 months after the time of arrest and to destroy cautions 12 months after the caution is issued, this time frame provides safe guards for the public and for the privacy rights of the individuals who have come into contact with the Police. If a Chief Constable wished to extend the period of time for data retention then he mush provide proof or evidence that this is necessary and proportionate, the accused should have a right of appeal against this request.

Readers of this blog might want to read home office circular 5 2005 which gives guidance to police forces on whether to disclose approved information to third parties on Enhanced CRB's

@ gymgymie - the text of this Circular and another relevant one:

Home Office Circular 5/2005
- Criminal Records Bureau: Local Checks by Police Forces for the Purpose of Enhanced Disclosures

Home Office Circular 6/2006
- The Notifiable Occupations Scheme: Revised Guidance For Police Forces

For WTWU

Cheers for this - I can't really say anything but legal proceedings were served in my case which is a precedent case - not sure how long it will take to get resolved or if the metropolitan police will fight it - I just don't know

I do hope it will get resolved because its gone on 15 months and has left me jobless, long term now in my 7th month, homeless and actually very near to a breakdown

WTWU

The only thing I will say without gettting involved in the legal side is that the guidelines clearly demonstrate in my case a prime example of a neighbour dispute ( which was exactly the case in my circumstances) where the circumstances of the matter were not taken in to account

I was also accused of having a conviction by the police when I have none - yet they still want to insist their notes are correct

I don't need to say what I think of the police because I think the circumstances behind this speak for itself - transphobia against me by metropolitan police in Lambeth - none of the criteria to justify disclosure against me apply - no not in terms of relevancy or in terms of proportionality but it seems whatever I say or the evidence I have and medical evidence appears to fall on deaf ears to the metropolitan police - they don't want to admit they made a mistake - I am suffering for their mistake in being tarnished along the lines for the name of soham despite 12 years of good and hardworking service in my field - even if I clear my name the damage done to me means I can't go back to my career thanks to their disclosure and outing me as a transexual

One more thing

I would like to ask your readers what a conviction means to them

In my case I have no cautions or convictions - in other words under these two sections it comes back blank my crb

Under any other information the police insist I have a conviction - yet the defitiniton of a conviction is that I either admitted wrong doing, was cautioned formally or went to court and was charged.

If my case does get to court - its basically about the right for the police to do what they want to people which it appears this government has allowed them to do exactly that - its about civil liberties, human rights and freedoms.

Its about balancing the rights of the community versus the rights of the individual and its about ensuring that a balanced disclosure is given not a one sided disclosure which clearly doesn't take account of the other side's story and a material circumstance - that I was the victim of an ongoing hate campaign and actually punched in the face and stomach on my own door step - because a counter allegation is made against me the police would rather believe that presumably because I am transexual and the implication is that I must be mentally ill - I hope this goes to court and I hope my QC will be allowed to represent me in terms of public funding so that this matter can be clarified in the wider public interest once and for all - I am sure if the police have done nothing wrong then they would welcome that public scrutiny by a law of court

West Midlands Precedent

This is a 2004 court of appeal case that allowed the police forces the decision to release data protection to third parties in the light of soham

The particular case was a social worker of 12 years who had allegedly been caught flashing to women

On being arrested he was charged and he also admitted this

My case rests on the fact I was the victim, I was never arrested though I notice the police tried to insist that I was yet they have been unable to come up with proof that I was

I was never charged and never admitted anything

So thats my arguement for stating that the west midlands precedent doesn't apply amongst others

Can anybody clarify the 'relevance test'?

WTWU

Your viewers may be interested in the firm of solicitors called chris saltresers and the Mr Pinnington Case where the claimant has won permission to challenge Thames Valley Police in terms of unfounded allegations against him which were reproduced by the police

I was dismissed from my job as a homecarer, last February 2007. Following allegations from a service user. Them allegations being, (that i had access to her financies) of getting involved in the financial affairs of a service user. I was instructed to do this by Social Services and the Company Superviser. Also, My role as a Support Worker entails getting involved in their financial affairs(shopping,paying bills, collecting their pensions ext) First i were accused of taking 400 pounds & then got changed to 800 pounds. There were not only me that had access to her affairs, her neighbour, other carers, family and even Social Services themselves. To cut a long story short. An investigation took place by the local police who dropped the case due to lack of evidence. This client had accused two people, only two months previous of the same allegation and again both cases being dropped due to lack of evidence. Clearly stating the Mental state of this clients mind. After applying for several jobs and getting nowhere, i discovered that this allegation was on my crb and the way the Police had disclosed this allegation, made it look like if this client had proceeded with court, then in their eyes i would of been commited. What ever happened to INNOCENT UNTILL PROVEN GUILTY! I was never Cautioned or Charged! I have at present got a Solicitor involved, who has written to GMP Requesting this information to be errased and if not then we are going to file for Judical review. Meaning, that if they dont remove this information or ammend(clearly stateing the facts) then we are going to apply to the High Courts to have a diff opinion of my case. I have read all the letters printed on this page and i suggest that some of you do the same thing. What can you lose, you've got a record by doing nothing, so get off your arses and do something about it! Wish me luck!

i

I am the mother of 2 sons, 1 is aged 39 and has been a perpetual offender, spanning most of his adult life and the other is 19 years old and has never committed a criminal offence. I also have no criminal record.

Therefore, you can imagine my sheer shock, when after applying for a job, to become an adult carer, with my local council, (Looking after adults with mental health problems), a CRB check was carried out on both myself and my younger son. Our CRB's returned, with all my eldest's sons criminal offences, tagged on the bottom. Until we received the above CRB's we had no idea of the extent and seriousness of his offending.

I am now concerned that my younger son and also myself will experience difficulties with securing future employment as a result of this. I have been to my MP, Malcolm Wicks, to look at how I can get a 3rd parties offences taken off of our CRB's and after writing to Ian Blair, a response was received advising that my eldest sons criminal offences, would not be removed from our CRB's

SOMEONE PLEASE OFFER SOME ADVISE AS WE ARE BOTH GOING OUT OF OUR MINDS WITH WORRY/ANGER.

@ Kelsada - does your criminal son live at the same address as you ? Would he have unsupervised physical access to the vulnerable people you would be caring for ? Are his convictions such that they would prevent him from taking up a similar job to the one you are applying for ?

If not, then it is hard to see how his criminal conviction details are at all relevant or proportionate to an Enhanced Disclosure about you.

Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is your brother Abel ?' Cain answered 'I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper ?' Genesis chapter 4, verse 9

How far along the Criminal Record Bureau's complicated Complaints procedure have you progressed ?

http://www.crb.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=1861

Have you sent a complaint to Ros Gardner, the Independent Complaints Mediator ?

Independent Complaints Mediator PO Box 5454 Newton Longville Milton Keynes MK17 0XN

Annual Report 2006/2007
http://www.crb.gov.uk/pdf/ICM%20Report%202006_07.pdf

She should get back to you within 10 (working) days with some sort of reply.

If the CRB have not cocked things up, and it a case of what the Police are deeming to be relevant and proportionate, then you can try

The Office of the Information Commissioner.
http://www.ico.gov.uk

"ICO helpline: Our helpline is open between the hours of 9.00am and 5.00pm, Monday to Friday.

08456 30 60 60
01625 54 57 45

By post:
The Information Commissioner's Office,
Wycliffe House,
Water Lane,
Wilmslow,
Cheshire,
SK9 5AF."

The CRB pretends, legally, not to "control" the data which it uses to produce the Enhanced Disclosures - the individual Police Forces are each responsible for the data which they put onto the system. You could write to the Data Controller for the Metropolitan Police Service i.e. The Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis, Sir Ian Blair, telling him to stop "processing" the data i.e. your son's criminal record details, as this "is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress" citing the Data Protection Act 1998 Section 10 Right to prevent processing likely to cause damage or distress

The Metropolitan Police then have 21 days to write back to you telling you that they intend to comply or giving reasons why they refuse to.

If they refuse, then you need to get some more advice from the ICO and your own lawyers.

I was arrested for a one time offense 18 years ago. (shoplifted a couple pair of jeans). ended up going to court and paying a $500 or $600 fine.

I recently had fignerprinting done to become a teachers assistant and also a special ed assistant.

I didnt tell them about the conviction because it was 18 years ago. i am not 36. I dont remember if it happened when i was 17 or 18.

do i need to worry about this??

(it was my teenage years and i was dumb!)

thank you....

@ lisa - did this happen in the United Kingdom or in the USA ?

If overseas, then, as the recent scandal involving supposedly security cleared airport workers shows, checks on foreign criminal records are utterly shambolic.

If it was in the UK, surely this is a minor "spent conviction" and it will have been "stepped down" ?

I've recently called NACRO and asked about cautions and the "stepping-down" model.

I cannot believe this, but apparently the ACPO have now rejected the model (despite PROMISING in writing to incorporate it in 2007) and cautions are to be never stepped-down and will forever remain on records.

I've been given a police caution for shoplifting last years ago. The officers at the time told me it would be deleted off the record in 5 years - NACRO told me it was a lie even though they probably didn't know it themselves.

I've read the retention and step-down model... and now can only hope that that is the truth. A caution is meant to be a slap on the wrist for first-time offenders, but it's been treated more and more like a conviction! - without court judgement!

I've recently phoned NACRO and apparently ACPO are trying (and most likely succeed) to abolish the "stepping-down" model!! - despite PROMISING to incorporate the system in 2007.

They call a caution as a slap on the wrist, but to me, it's becoming more and more like a conviction without court judgement.

(I received a caution for shoplifting last years ago when 18... was told at the time by police it would only be on record for 5 years)

I recently contacted NACRO who told me that the "stepping-down" model is never and will never be incorporated! - despite ACRO promising to do so.

@ braindead - if they are not implementing the "step down model" does that mean that

a) the old Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 still actually applies in practice as it used to, with "spent" minor convictions and cautions not having to be disclosed after a certain period ?

or

b) that the Police and Criminal Records Bureau are retaining and disclosing everything via Enhanced Disclosures, effectively for ever ?

Why won't my comments post!?

phone NACRO for more information!

Oh, sorry, I didn't realise everything's posted.

Sadly, I believe it to be (b) - NACRO certainly seemed to believe so and they are very angry too. And this isn't just for Enhanced CRB checks, but standard disclosures too (which "stepped down" cautions shouldn't have appeared on).

He may have misinformed me (for I have heard nothing on the contrary except on that phone call) so I urge anyone who can to phone NACRO on 0800 0181 259 and ask about the "step down" model.

I'm very anxious too.

Anyone?? Is the "step-down" model still in place?

hi i have been asked to start a job in my local nursury and have been told i need a crb check i now i have a conviction for a assult from 5 years ago and drink driving also 5 years ago will this stop me from working with children on a crb check

Hi, just reading all the posts I can sympathise with everyones problems with the sytem. I live in Scotland and have looked into this problem through a wish to apply for other jobs. After being told for years by other folk that minor offences are deleted after 5 years, I now realise that isnt the case. In Scotland minor offences also become spent after 5 years but they are never deleted and will appear on Enhanced Disclosures.

I also found out that there is a weeding out rule called a 20/40 rule where if 20 years have passed since the offence and also if the offender is over 40 they can apply to have that record removed. It changes for more serious offences to a 30/70 rule.

I have minor offences that happened when I was a teenager and they are at least 15 years ago so I had been thinking at least they would be deleted when I was 40. But after reading the posts on here it seems that minor convictions will always be kept on computer. This is worry for people who have already been in post for many years before these disclosure laws came into force.

It seems the only way round it is to be as honest as possible on job applications and even speak to your union or senior manager beforhand to sound them out before applying for jobs. Sadly this isnt much help for people trying to start a new career.

I also agree with other posters, that the British Government is leaving it open for foreign workers to take jobs unfairly, as they will not be subject to the same checks as a British National.

WTWU

Hello

I thought I would update you my case is currently progressing towards mediation and I have a case management conference in early september for which I am hoping to get a trial date

The other side have been very good at dragging their feet to try and resolve this matter and it does look like this will go to court as a test case

For anyone on here - there is nothing u can do

Career wise, I have no cautions or convictions and the west midlands precedent doesn't apply to me

This isn't relevant to my work but because I am highly skilled and specialised with years of service to my field no other employer will take me on overqualified or inexperienced

Also I can't earn over 21k as my case will cost a 6 figure sum to bring to the high court - its not a good situation to be in and i am now 10 months out of work and this whole sorry saga is nearly a year and a half old - for me its quite clearly to do with my gender reassignment and I will prove this in court as I have an excellent medical report in support of my clinical neligence claim

I have just qualified to be a nursery nurse 2 weeks ago! Then On Friday on my way down town my friend got arrested for shouting and stuff, I was drunk and upset that he was being arrested and was trynna stop it from happening so they arrested me too and I got cautioned for obstruction! then they found cannabis in my bag :( so I got a caution for that too! Im so gutted that now my whole career might be ruined! I have had a crb check throughout my training but I think if I get a job I will probably have to do another one, Im terrified this is gonna haunt me forever, all Ive wanted to do all my life is work with children and now just because of some drunken night I might not b able to do that! Can someone tell me what will happen?? Im so scared!

what are the salient objectives of the CRB

The Information Tribunal has made an important ruling regarding old (25 year or longer) criminal records and the Police National Computer.

In three cases, they have decided that although the data is not to be deleted, it will not be allowed to be used for non-Police operational purposes e.g. employment vetting checks via the Criminal Records Bureau.

The Chief Constables of West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire and North Wales Police v The Information Commissioner

http://www.informationtribunal.gov.uk/Documents/decisions/north_wales_police.pdf

Hi just wanted to ask, is charge of Breach of the peace that was not prosecuted, kept on record and disclosed on enhanced disclosure.
p.s. i'm in Scotland?

Criminal records bureau enhanced disclosure and the ACPO step down model.

the step down model of the ACPO is important to detect the person if he/she have a criminal records in case they escape or deny for the crime or whatever records he/she done.

Criminal records bureau enhanced disclosure and the ACPO "step down model" for the Police National Computer.

The step down model of the ACPO is important to detect the the person if he/she has a records in case they want to escape or deny for the the crime that they commit in there past.

WTWU

Just thought I would let you know my case went to mediation - I did get offered a settlement but it didnt include all of my legal costs so I am now going to trial with my case before the high court in early 2009

Wish me luck I do have reasonable prospects of success but it is a knife edge which way it will go - I am also expecting my case to attract media interest though so far it hasn't lets hope it stays that way because of the cirumstances of this matter

Wish me luck because god I will need it and also if I do win about the way the disclosure was written and done it will set down important procedures providing i prove liability
Gymgymie

Incredibly, CRB staff do not seem to have to have CRB checks themselves !

Home Office Written Answers Monday 29th September 2008

Departmental Vetting

Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what percentage of staff recruited to (a) her Department and (b) its agencies were

29 Sep 2008 : Column 2335W

required to have a Criminal Records Bureau check before an offer of employment was made in each year since 2002. [219042]

Mr. Byrne: A Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) check is primarily a requirement for posts that involve working with children and/or vulnerable adults. Home Office headquarters and the Criminal Records Bureau do not require staff to undergo CRB checks prior to being offered employment.

[...]

This is a weasel worded answer, because there are other categories of people i.e. "those in positions of trust" e.g. bank managers etc. who do have to get CRB checks, even if they are not directly involved with children or vulnerable adults.

Why should criminals be, potentially, working for the Criminal Records Bureau itself ?

I was convincted 18mths for conspirency I passed 6mths in prison awaiting for trial this back in 1984 I know the police did their trick but I was innocent this was hanting me all my life now I'm 55 I'm trying to get a job in a nursery I reiceved my CRB and there's the convinction even it past over 20years now, can someone help me how to remove this please please help I want to get a job and not to live in benefit thanking you

I was almost beaten to death by my alcoholic ex-husband. He attacked me on a daily basis and one day I retaliated, (although doing him no harm), because I took him to court for GBH, he took me to court ( tit for tat)for ABH. I was given a year`s probation and he was let off with a caution and a small fine. I had done nothing wrong previously and had medical reports of my on-going injuries. He, however, had a string of violent offences against him, not only for the ones involving me. The Court could not bring up his previous offences so he got off scot-free.I now have an `offences against the person` conviction against me although this was over 20 years ago, and I cannot work for any Health Authority or any job that involves vulnerable persons even though I was the victim and am no danger to anyone.I`m sickened by the whole system and still feel abused.

Hi i was wondering if any one could help me out!

A week ago i was arrested for drunk and disorderly and put in a cell/detained for the night. i had my fingerprints taken the next morning but i cant remember whether words like caution, conviction etc where ever used and i dont think they where.

I am a student and only 19 and in a few years (3-4) time i think i will probably apply to become a teacher.

Will this appear on my CRB check? i have no idea if it will or not?

any help would be useful!

Is there any new information on this? Has anyone completed an enhanced crb and as a result of the step down model the conviction data HASNT shown?

My first conviction was more than 15yrs ago. I was convicted for multiple offences of a juvenile and adult nature. On paper these offenses look serious but were of a minor nature, such as pushing a Policeman away during an arrest which resulted in me having an assult charge on my record for life. I am now 39yrs of age and qualified as a Nurse/Midwife. Please please all of you, do not allow this unforgiving, labeling society ruin your chances of success in life. Never give up on your goals and to those of you who have moved on and studied for degrees and completed professional training and are applying for jobs, take my experience and advice, just be completely honest about your past, heres how.......

On your application form write you are happy to discuss your convictions in detail at the interview and will submit the necessary information.

Write a cover letter explaining your past and explain how you have rehabilitated yourself. State in your letter how these negative experiences have changed your life. Discuss your past openly at the interview. They may ask you if you have disclosed a criminal past on your application, if not make sure you bring it up prior to the end of the interview, they will respect you for that. Place your conviction details in an envelope with your cover letter marked confidential. Ensure at the interview that it only goes to the necessary people who deal with CRB information. You can obtain your own CRB details from the PNC yourself for £10 pounds, contact NACRO for further information. If you have been under the Probation Service Support letters to your future employer can help. Never give up and do expect some prejudice. Even after 12yrs of NHS Professional Work I still have had to fight against some individuals prejudice but have survived. Remember it is up to us to prove others wrong.Go ahead fulfill your dreams and maybe you will be the one in chair to offer a rehabilitated individual the that dream job. Good luck to you all!

For Stephanie,

What you say is all well and good but I did the same and my job offer still got withdrawn and like Pinnington and also another case Manni I cannot get employment at all now.

Unlike Pinnington and Manni my circumstances were due to me being the victim of gender reassignment assaults not allegations of professional misconduct

Currently my case goes to court not as a judicial review (unlike the above two cases) but as an action for damages under the human rights act in mid to end march 2009 - so long as I get a declaration of incompatiblity with my human rights I intend to go to ECHR

If I lose as I expect the current law to be upheld by british judges at any cost I plan to take my case to ECHR anyway to get this ridiculous over the top law overturned in much the same way the ECHR have now had the sense to overturn DNA laws by the police in this country

I think I stand a good chance of doing so, thank god for Europe

Why should an innnocent person have their life destroyed by a government so hell bent and lacking common sense on false accusations being listed against someone and tarnishing their employment prospects without charge or prosecution

its wrong -

Hi,

Last year I was found sleeping in my car drunk, the police bailed me on drunkin and in charge of a motor veichle, I went to court and they found me not guilty, and what I would like to know is will this show when my employer dose the next enhanced CRB check on myself ?, I have done many google searchs but not found a clear answer.

Thanks

What I think particularly concerns most of us is:
a) the information the police give to you at the time of arrest and they definitely do sometimes lie.
b) contradictory information and regulation... for example the CRB and NARCO say that spent convications are exempt from the rehabilation of offenders act, yet I am concerned unscrupulous recruitment agencies as umbrella companies of the CRB can and will do disclosures for exempted professions... and more jobs go via recruitment agencies before you get to the employer thus bypassing the regulations.
c) Despite being locked in the police cell, appearing in court, fined, telling the relatives and suffering whatever financial consequences at the time, you have to suffer the stress of something rearing it's ugly head years later and the feeling there is no comeback because you were misinformed or lied to by someone supposedly in authority. From experience I've also found to no surprise that people are faulty at keeping confidential information for example professional HR managers.

I would only hope that the agencies of CRB, NARCO and ACPO are agreed on there is nothing inherently wrong with excessive data keeping IF ITS USE IS REGULATED and I hope this is the idea behind the step down model and that it is being enforced. It is on their web page as being in effect.

The most important thing is to try and stay calm and read all the information and know your rights. Rehabiliation is all to do with healing ones self and forgetting the past and making sure we don't make more mistakes. The police and the courts make mistakes too...

http://www.acpo.police.uk/acro/
http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/Retention%20of%20Records06.pdf

IAM THINKING OF EMERGRATIN TI CANADA, I STOLE A CAR 23YRS AGO WILL IT SHOW UP AND STOP ME FROM GOING ON MY CHECK UP

I was in my late 20's when I commotted the most stupid mistake in my life that I never thought would do, thus stealing £7 worth of goods from my employer. It happened about 6 years ago and I had to apply for my citizenship where they had to do a crb check. I received my citizenship and my passport. I have a degree now since my conviction and I have to apply for my PGCE to work with adults in further education. Can my past convictions stop me from getting this university place.

Please help I do not want to beg or be on benefits but work for my lfe and family

Can someone please advise me, in August 2008 I was roughly man handled by 2 security guards at a pop concert for an incident that didn't even involve me and was charged with ABH (they were 20 stone lumps and I am a 8 stone woman) I am accused of biting one of their hands to get them off of me. To the police's shock the CPS decided to prosecute me, even though I have never been in trouble before. I am pleading not guilty as it was self defence, but my case isn't due till October 2009. I work in a college with vunerable young adults and am training to be a lecturer. My next CRB is due before I go to court, will this charge show up even though I haven't been convicted? And if I get a not guilty (which my solicitor thinks is 99% going to happen) will the fact I was charged with this crime show up? I am absolutley gutted and worried sick as I have put so much effort into my Teacher Training course.

@ John D, dread, Michelle Lee - have you contacted the CRB helplines for specific advice in your case ?

* 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. on weekdays
* 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. on Saturday (closed Sunday and public holidays)

[...]

http://www.crb.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=422

General Enquiries 0870 90 90 811

Or Click here to make a general enquiry about the CRB’s services

CRB Customer Services
PO Box 110
Liverpool
L69 3EF

[...]

Remember, 0870 telephone calls are charged at the national rate. All calls will be recorded for security purposes and may be monitored for training purposes.

NACRO may also be useful. See NACRO disclosures.

br -d

i was wrongfully arrested but the charges were dropped a few months later
would this show up on an enhanced disclosure

i was raped as a tennager so i carried a knife in my bag dont know if i would have evr used it but it gave me some comfort, there was a fight in college and police was called the student bar was shut and we were all searched, i was convicted with carrying an offensive weapon, this was at 18, at 21 i meet an abusive man who told me to go into a bank with fake id to take some money out, this was the point where i know i had a chance to escape him, i informed the banker and asked for them to cal the police, my honesty didnt pay i recived a caution. now im 31 and i want to become a social worker they say my conviction and caution has been stepped down but what does that really mean, will it still show up?????? someone with facts help...

I am getting increasingly scared,

Two months ago I got into an argument with a doorman who was not displaying, he followed me as I tried to leave and provoked me, then I went back to send the manager in to get my bag, as he was doing that the doorman kept provoking me. I was drunk, but repeating the act he had breached. Then went away, as I got around the corner away a police van he called arrived, so I stopped to talk to them, thinking if I explained the situation they would just say head that way (I was not wanting to seem like I was tryng to creep away) and move away (I had been told where my bag was as it was at another bar (one I had asked at to avoid returning, but the barman I asked did not know the manager had locked a bag in the cellar so said they had no bag earlier). Anyhow as I was comming he came and things got inflamed, but I was trying to say I was going away and was just going to pick up my bag, from the otherside of town and go home. I was concerned about being arrested for drunk and disorderly. Then they arrested me for "potential breach of the peace" I thougt they thought there could be a problem when I got to the bar.
Anyhow some two hours later I was released without charge, no further action, told it was not a recordable offence, and that I was being released without charge. They did not do much to check my identity, just took the details I gave them at face value, they did not do the fingerprinting/DNA/photographs and not recorded it on the police national computer. They do have a custody report on there local machine. I have now found out that being released without being charged is not like being innocent (I was scared of getting a caution whihc I relised was admitting the offence. Now I have read that I need a visa to enter America, just for being arrested, also they wrote returned to the bar and caused a disturbance. A standard CRB will have no trace of me, an enhanced may throw this up depending on how there local server is searched, and just being arrested, even though not charged or cautioned will affect the type of work an enhanced CRB is taken out for. So one stupid mistake on my part will be with me for the rest of my life. I was very panicked as I thought the bag had some address data in it by accident which in certain hands could have put families at risk, however fortunatly I had already returned it to the local council and deleated it from the memory stick in the bag, but as I was drunk and panicking I thought I had not deleated the data. I am still amazed they only wanted something with my name on it for ID, and asked me for place of birth, as a criminal would surly have a cloned identity or have looked up the name of someone with the same name as him and give there place of Birth, also I am never sure what to say for place of Birth anyhow as do they mean bourough, town or village?

I phoned and asked when the records of arrests and no further action are deleated and told never, and I was arrested to prevent a potential breach of the peace, so surely that means by preventing me from potentially commiting a breach, then surly no crime (or infact common law offence) was even committed.

Does anyone know when the Court of Appeal decision is due re deleting old convictions?

See story: -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8113125.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1194794/Johnsons-review-wipe-millions-convictions-police-national-minor-criminals-second-chance.html

Hi, I have just finished my degree and will hopefully be starting a PGCE course in september. I've had the same problems as everyone else who has posted. I was cautioned for shoplifting when I had just turned 14 - it was such a stupid mistake and all that for a silly little lipstick, I was going through some family troubles at the time and it was totally uncharacteristic. The whole experience petrified me and I've never even thought about doing anything like it again.
Anyway, at the time myself and my parents would told this would be wiped from my record when I was 18 and would not effect my future.
So when I was asked to fill in the CRB forms for this PGCE course I didn't think I had to mention it at all - I was wrong.
Shortly after I received my CRB disclosure which showed the details of my reprimand in 2001 - I am now 22, 8 years has passed since it happened. My University then wrote to me asking for more details on the incident that would then be taking to a review panel to decide if I could still go on the course.
Im sure you can imagine how awful this has all been for me, since then I havn't heard anything at all from the university despite my emails.
After contacting the CRB people they told me I had to contact the local police force that arrested me and ask for the caution to be 'stepped down', and I could then make a new CRB application.
I did so, and had to provide them some details in writing. They told me the whole process would take approx 2 weeks and they would then contact me by post to say the step down has been succesfull. They told me if it was unsuccesfull then they would contact me immediatley.
It's now been almost 2 weeks since the process began so I am hopeful that my caution will be stepped down and so won't show up on future CRB's.
After reading some of the previous post though I'm not so sure, but i'll take it a step at the time and keep you updated! I hope this may help some of you worrying about CRB checks!

Hello Claire,

Stepping down the reprimand will not mean that it wont show on an enhanced CRB check.

My understanding is that it WILL show as the Police disclose all information held on PNC, even those that have been stepped down.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news - our best chance is in the court of appeal hearing that started on 22nd June 2009 which my mean that if your conviction is deemed no longer relevant, or its retention is excessive for policing purposes, then under the data protection act the police may HAVE to delete it.

I just cant find any further information or update anywhere re the progress of this case.

Hi everyone.

I feel really sorry for a lot of you who dont have a second chance. There is also no group that is supporting the probably 1000's of people supporting this.

I would really recommend that you contact liberty and explain the problem.

There really needs to be a test case at the European court, particularly as this country penalizes their young. If you did the same thing in Poland, Italy at the same age, you would not be discriminated as they dont keep records.

This government is keen on killing off opportunities for its own young people and then wonder why there is an excluded young generation that does not go into the professions - er they've been marked with a cross !

Someone with a good case to answer for (multiple cautions) needs to get in with liberty and get this taken up. The data protection registrar is a toothless tiger.

www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk

May I offer a suggestion to everyone? It would appear to be that the rehabilitation of offenders Act is not working because this government and it's gradual progression to a police state does not want to ever let people forget that they may have made a mistake once in their life. That they should be punished over and over again. Perhaps we should form a lobby group? Remember, we have all made mistakes and until the government change the rules we all have a vote. there must be thousands or millions of people in the same position as us, especially as this government is intent by one way or another of criminalising us all. So what do we do? Start a political party or such a large lobby group with such a powerful block vote that the government cannot in all honesty ignore these breaches of human rights. I am not talking about the serial offender or those people who have been convicted of serious sexual offences. I am talking about the once only conviction which after twenty years of not re-offending could and should be removed entirely from every database that the police and any other organisation has. It appears to me that the police have become far too used to developing policy in the judicial system and need to be made to realised that they are servants of society not its masters and watchdogs.I am happy to help in organising and helping in a technical way to develop web sites etc. So that our voice can be heard, we need to show strength and determination and will not bow down to this fascist approach to rehabilitation.

High Court Appeal judgment of relevance to this topic of, in effect , the effective abandonment of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (without it having been repealed) by this Labour government, due to the indefinite retention of even spent and minor convictions and cautions, and their disclosure via the Criminal Records Bureau standard and enhanced disclosures.

Chief Constable of Humberside Police & Ors v The Information Commissioner & Anor [2009] EWCA Civ 1079 (19 October 2009)
URL: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2009/1079.html

The Judges have ruled against the deletion of spent, minor criminal records, but have failed to make any safeguards about the disclosure of such convictions and cautions etc.

The whole counterproductive bureaucratic jobsworth mess that is the Criminal Records Bureaus and the Independent Safeguarding Agency, needs to be reformed, but this judgment leaves that to Parliament, and the useless repressive Labour government.

Just been reading the lastest failed appeals of people trying to quash old minor offences.
http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/judgments_guidance/chief-cons-v-information-commissioner-191009.pdf

I've been attempting the same thing, and just received a letter saying that even standard crb checks would now contain everything.

Oh and re. the very real Police State we live in (compared to 20 years ago): people's votes _would_ make a difference, there are literally millions of old minor offences, but how many are holding people back? And how many of these will fight when nobody even leaves their contact details for fear of embarrassment!

I wonder whether MP's get criminal record for the 1000s they steal? --probably not. david

Hi all

i deprestly need all your help. I started worrk 2months ago as a complaints officer. In my job i am asked to visit tenants aswell whist working. I have just finishded university and during my graduation ball night i was drunk and said a few bad things to a prostitute. I gt pulled over by the police, arrested and forced to pleaad guilty in court. I was accused of kerb crawling simply for acting silly. Now 3 mnths on my job want a crb check. I am worried they will fire me. They did not ask me in my interview or application form about any records bt did say they can do a crb at any point. CAn they fire me legally? and i am also worried that family members in the company will see my crb? is there data protection acts whereby i decide who cannot view my crb results??

I really suggest that people stay away from any work with children and avoid these careers entirely.

You could be arrested at any point by idiot police and this will ruin your life, no need for any evidence or conviction, think twice before becoming a teacher or doing any work in the health services.

Hi im 17yrs old got a reprimand for abusive & threatening behaviour in April 2010. Had an enhance CRB check & it showed up now im not allowed to work at my placement even though it didn't involve children it was for swearing as my friend got arrested for no reason. Will this reprimand come of my CRB records when im 18 as I was really enjoying doing my course & working at my placement now i feel as if my world has fallen.