Free Gary McKinnon

He should go to the US and be charged for what he did wrong, who in their right mind believes the waffle about UFO's and now he has Aspergers, this is rubbish, he hacked computers and this takes some doing and skill and intent, I should know as Im a qualified PC Technician and what Gary did was quite advanced, The UK people need to wake up and see what he did, he got caught deal with it.

@ Darren - it is rather more complicated than that, as he broke the law in the UK at the same time as in the USA, whilst being physically in the UK, where he was arrested. Gary has never claimed to be entirely innocent, and has always said that he is willing to face a fair trial in the UK.

Extradition laws are struggling to cope fairly with this sort of modern cross border crime, which is not as clearcut as the old style extradition cases which only involved criminals physically fleeing across an international border, beyond the jurisdiction of the local law enforcement forces.

How does being a qualified PC Technician make you capable of medical diagnosis by proxy ?

Read the Judgments and you will see that both the UK and the US governments accept that Gary does have Asperger's Syndrome, the legal arguments are about how relevant that is to the narrow legal and judicial procedures.

Gary's activities were obsessively persistent, but no "Zer0 DayZ" hacking exploits were required - the supposed computer defences were literally non-existent - no proper internet firewalls, allowing remote access via the internet to systems with default blank systems administrator passwords, non-existent or ignored computer security vulnerability audits etc. Nowadays the average home computer is far better protected by default than these US military systems were back circa 2001.

That is why the people who think that Gary has some special skills or knowledge which could help secure the US military networks against the Chinese etc. are wrong - the US military already had this knowledge, they did not have the management procedures or resources to enforce their own existing security policies, due to incompetence or corruption etc.

This bhas been going on for far too long. Darren, a few years before Gary McKinnon hacked the pentagon etc, a welsh guy called mathew bevan did exaclty the same - only when he was taken to court in the UK,, the case fell apart because the yanks couldnt provide much evidence ...

The Yanks had secured enough money after Mathew Bevan hacked - to provide firewalls, antivirus softwware etc (and im guessing they secured millions of dollars)....

what happned to all that money spent ? if it all was spent on securing the yanki computers how come there werent even any passwords or firewalls when gary hacked in?

How the hell are the yanks gonna provide any evidence against gary? computer print outs? re-enactments? did gary really do all that damage or are the yanks trying to secure yet more money to "secure" ther computers?

i wonder where all that money would really be going?

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH:

I sent this email to the BBC's any.answers Saturday programme, as it appears the Daily Mail comments page seems not to wish to publish my commentary, which does give Gary and his lawyers scope for the introduction of a comparitor.

Good Morning Eddie Mair,

I have noted the gross hypocrissy of the US and UK government, in regards to Gary McKinnon and his case.

Putting aside Gary's Asprerges disability and viewing the recent form the US government has displayed in regards to espionage and operatives, one has to cite the recent case of Ben Ami Kadish.

Ben Ami Kadish is an US/Israeli dual citizen, who for over 20 years spied upon the US and delivered top secret military documents to Israel, to which he was arrested and in May of this year charged with spying, but merely given a $50,000 dollar fine, to which he then told the judge "No problem"!

Let it also be known that Ben Ami Kadish's handler, was the same handler, another dual citizen US/Israeli spy worked with, i speak of course of the jailed Jonathon Pollard, who today still sits in prison for his crime of spying against the US for Israel.

When Carl Cameron of Fox News did the expose that revealed to the world that Israeli spies were spying on the US pre 11th September 2001 and that many were arrested by the FBI following the Twin Towers destruction, yet released released,by Michael Chertoff, another dual citzen Israeli, no one has even had so much as a wrist slapping.

Now "our governmnent" would want us to accept a biased treaty, wereby we are told we must throw Gary to a government that has a two tier judicial system, whereby Israeli spies go free and others get locked up without adequate legal defence!

Furthermore the US judicial system has a history steeped in racism!

WHEN ISSUES SUCH AS THIS ARE IGNORED, ONE HAS TO ASK THE QUESTION, WHY THE PANIC OVER GARY?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

BELOW, PLEASE VIEW THE CARL CAMERON FOX EXPOSE ON ISRAELI'S SPYING ON US PRIOR TO & ON 11th September 2001!

http://100777.com/usa/israeli_spyring

Gary McKinnon is not a terrorist and as far as i know, he is not a dual citizen!

"Karen Todner, Gary's solicitor, has stated that she will be applying (within the statutory 28 days) for such an appeal to be heard, however, it is by no means certain that this legal avenue will be open or successful.."

A wait and stay on further speculation and prosecution of the matter would then seem to be Perfectly in Order until a definitive certainty is exercised for rightful consideration and Due First, Second and Third Party Due Processing of Evolving Space Law.

Free Gary! It's ridculous it has been going on this long and must be so distressing for him and is family. What he did was wrong, he has admitted that (of his own free will without a lawyer present) but he meant no malicious intent. Because of his Asperger's he became obssessed with outing the truth about UFOs. It's unbelievable the security was not in force to prevent him hacking and this may be the real reason the US is pursuing this case so much, because of their embarrassment.

He was originally told he'd be given six months community service and has suffered seven years of torment not knowing what will happen to him. There is no way he should be extradited to the US or given a harsh prison sentence, especially after taking this long for it to come to trial. Lock up the real criminals - the ones who are the real blight on society. Pursue the murderers, rapists, terrorists all of whom have probably suffered less mental distress with short trials. He is petrified of going to prison, somewhere he would never fit in and let's face it, he'd be a soft touch. Leave the willy wee laddie, who went muddling where he shouldn't have and pissed off some high-up chiefs, alone. This pursuit is just to satisfy their huge egos that have been bruised badly by the fact an untrained IT 'expert' hacked into their multi-million pound 'high-tech' security network.

he was looking for whatever he could get and it looks like he will get more than he bargained for.

It was a great mistake Mr. Mckinnon did not take the deal offered him by US prosecutors. That would have been the best course of action. US prosecutors are very powerful but also are pretty straight and the deal proposed by the US Attorney was a great one under the circumstances and Mr. Mckinnon would have been long home by now.
He is going to have to go to jail and take any plea bargain offered though it may not be as good as the one originally on offer. There is no escaping the US authorities especially in a case like this. Mr Mckinnnon should NOT go to trial--please tell him that. His best option now is to get the best plea bargain he can under the circumstances and apply for early transfer back to the UK. If I were him I would serve out my time in a federal prison in the US--much better.

I really find this interesting. Gary denies any damage, but his lawyer is smart enough to refer to it as "Temporary Impairment" of the network. Which tells me that she would not perpetuate a lie in court or in the press. She knows what Gary did and you guys refuse to admit it.

It is time to face the music Gary. Man up and begin your journey down the path of righteousness.

run forrest run .

@FG See you even twisted what I said so you cant be trusted to show the truth, You wrote- How does being a qualified PC Technician make you capable of medical diagnosis by proxy- where did I say, because I was/am a qualified PC tech that I can diagnose his so called illness? I never I just made a statement about how self qualified you would have to be to hack a Gov .Net, so as said he should go to the US and be tried he did wrong and I would also like to point out that the US have more proof than when the Mathew Bevan hacked a low level security junction, and FG Your so out of touch with technical advancements its laughable, esp when quoting "Zer0 DayZ" children under 6 know more than you do, anyway he did wrong even with or without the aspergers fallback ;) Hey he's trying to save himself maybe you should say it was an alien who hacked its just as plausable. And for the US Gov not having any security all I can say is go and work on their systems like () have then youll see how hard it is to crack, he was persistent and had no concern for any of the Info on the servers, he broke in he got caught he should be like a man and DEAL WITH IT.

I would just like to add a point to the people saying that an untrained guy hacked a secure server.

When you undertake any course in computing like, N+ A+ MCSE, MCP, CCNA, or anything else you are not taught hacking, or any form of illegal activity as companies rely heavily on trust, Hacking is underground and illegal and untrustworthy individuals carry out the activity, and its very hard to learn how to hack effectively, it takes more than a trip down the library, so the intent is their already.

Sarah Wood you are so naive it is pitifull. He is a TERRORIST as you call "real criminals". His actions could have cost lives(and do to National security we will not know) both in the US and the UK. He should be scared and I don't care if he feels out of place. How would you like if he got your brother, father, husband etc killed because of his breach of security, would he be more of a criminal then?
I serve my country and risk my life for the worlds safety, I am sure you can not say the same. Save your compasion for someone who deserves it like the widow of a fallen soldier. Visit a veterans hospital and spend some time with the burned, broken, amputees and look them in the eyes and say "oh let poor Gary free".
Instead the next time you see someone in uniform take the time to thank them for their service, or even more thank their family, spouse, children.
If he were a muslim we would not be having this conversation, you are prejudice because he doesn't look like the Devil but he is. And no I am Catholic.

@ Darren - you have now twice, either implied that Gary does not have Asperger's Syndrome, or that it is somehow not a real illness - you are provably wrong on both counts - read the legal Judgments.

"and FG Your so out of touch with technical advancements its laughable, esp when quoting "Zer0 DayZ" children under 6 know more than you do"

You do not sound as if you have any real world experience of defending large computer networks against attack.

FG, I don't care if he thinks he is the Queen herself, send him to a mental hospital for the criminally insane in the US.

@ Scott Muirhead - if you cannot distinguish between a terrorist and an ordinary criminal, then you are not defending your country properly, and you are a danger to our country.

The US prosecutors, in their October 2002 indictment press conferences were at pains to point out to the public there was no involvement with terrorism, no organised crime, no foreign intelligence agency involvement, and no compromise of national security in the Gary McKinnon case.

There have been no terrorism charges brought in the last 7 years, either in theUSA or in the UK.

@Darren. It is not hard to hack if security is poor, one only has to acquire one of the numerous scripts and small apps that scan ports and check for unsecured entry points. A teenager with a basic knowledge of scripting can write a virus, run a port scan or parse a dictionary across a password.
Yes it takes time, but one does not have to be a unix geek to initiate the kind of attacks that Gary mounted.
It does not matter how good a system is, it is the user that will ultimately determine the integrity of a system. Had there been adequate password security these and most other attacks would never have the impact they have. Like most hackers, Gary exploited the stupidity of others and had just enough knowledge to mount an attack but not enough to fully understand what he was doing. As a 'techie' (sic) you should also know that one has a responsibility to ensure data is secure. Why was the information not encrypted, why were all ports not secure and monitored, why were passwords and unames allowed to remain as default and how was a sensitive system able to be accessed from an unrecognised IP address?
Before you espouse your techie credentials you should have some idea of what you are talking about. Gary is a scapegoat and should not face extradition - if a prosecution is to occur it should occur within the current uk legislation of sec. 2 or 3 of the Computer Misuse Act which has adequate provision for all forms of unauthorised entry.

@ Scott Muirhead - why are you insulting Her Majesty the Queen ? Keep that up and you will be banned from here.

Alan Johnson is refusing to meet Gary.

And I thought it was Asperger's people who cannot look you in the eye.

This is just getting beyond a joke now after years of trying escape extradition, how many appeals can one case get.

I don't pretent to understand the emotional strain on Gary or his mother but lets have a look at the facts.

A serious crime has been committed not alleged as some people put he has already admitted to hacking in to look for UFO's.

That would be like me breaking into someone's house to look at the decor and the police saying well on your way after all you meant no harm.

IF he was intelligent enough to break into a goverment system where he was not meant to be then he knew right from wrong and whether you think the sentence of a possible 60 years is harsh or not those are the laws.

All these people saying it was the US Goverments fault for not having good enough security that enabled Gary to hack into their system . . . WHAT !! So if someone breaks a lock on a door and bypasses the alarm on a shop is that the shops fault for not having good enough security . . don't think so the person is still responsible for breaking in is he not ?

As for not getting a fair trial in the U.S do you think the Americans are going to risk anything but a fair trial with the whole world watching.

Speaking as somebody who has Aspergers Syndrome too, I will tell you from my insight that I know exactly what it is like, but bear in mind everyone is different. Aspergers changes every aspect of someone, and there is no "cure" because it is part of who I am.
Being Aspergers, I take most things literally.
A basic one: "don't speak to strangers and keep away from them". There isn't anything added on the end saying "but if they are the police, it is ok to go with them, and be very patient if they grab you!" No wonder why there are lot of undiagnosed people with Asperger's winding up with a criminal record for 'resisting arrest', or in worser cases 'assaulting a police officer'. "excuse me? what's a police officer? oh, that stranger who tried to put these metal things on my hands when I tried to stay away, and I don't like getting touched by people I don't know? What have I done wrong? I've done exactly as I was told, I am staying away from the strangers!"
(don't worry, I never had that problem as my Grandad used to be a policeman and I learned very early on who the police are!)

The only way to deal with things like that is to build a huge "database" in your own mind of many different scenarios that do not follow the verbally said rules, and are 'unwritten rules', literally learning the hard way, and it is really embarrassing especially in social situations when you say something that sounds wrong through double-meaning words that sound sexual to them.

I don't pick up on things well from 'gossip' unless it is a one-to-one conversation, or I know the group who are talking well enough.
As my ears tend to be 'amplified', I am a good listener in one-to-one conversations, and come across as more sociable than most. But if you add people to the conversation, I soon get lost as the words become muffled, and people get the wrong idea!
Personally, I struggle with phoning people (despite my obsession with taking them apart and reprogramming them!) and knowing what times best to call. I wouldn't mind any time, even midnight- for anyone to ring me. As midnight is around the time my mind is clear enough to think in depth of my friends and want to know how they are, that's the ideal time for me I would call, but I can't because obviously they will be trying to sleep and will get frustrated. (Ok, these days if I knew they were getting drunk that night, then I'll call them as I know they won't be asleep, and will find me more amusing!).
Other times feel I feel I am in the dark, and isolated because I can't find information, particurly in social circumstances, when something bad happens to a friend and you aren't allowed to know the truth. This causes a state where I cannot stop thinking of what I want to know, and will go to any length, no matter what happens, to find answers because it becomes such a major distraction that I cannot concentrate on daily life as much as I should. AND some people on the outside will see that, and WILL use it to their advantage. I admit I am somewhat a techie and have to be very careful as to what lengths I go, because even in school an "access denied" message for some stupid reason on an email site would not stop me, I would figure a way around it, and I got hold of a proxy script freely available on the Internet and used it on my own website as a personal way to get around the surf controls. I was only spotted when people looked over my shoulder and used it themselves, and I was soon put on permanent 'Internet watch' and banned from my own website, even though I had no Internet access at home. As the public libraries in my area went through the same council server as at my school, banning my website at school also banned it in public libraries that had nothing to do with the school, kinda an unintentional 'punishment' but hey. I probably could have stopped people looking over my shoulder by adding a password to the proxy site, but because ever since I let people use it I stopped getting bullied (and I used to get bullied every day at school, including in the toilets when I used to get bottles of watter and wet tissue thrown at me, and had to have someone escort me from class to class it was that bad) and I finally got respect, I was not willing to be told by the teachers that I should delete the site. I did try distracting the others by creating a games site out of flash files I had obtained from other blocked websites to create a site that was the only one not-blocked, and this ensured that for the final 2 years of my school life, I was hardly bullied even by people who used to all the time, as they would ask me for tech help as they had found a use for me (ok, they may have just been using me, but I preferred that than bullying). I simply kept adding more addresses to the website when it got blocked, but it soon racked up a large bill and it took me years to pay my mum off. (yes, since then I have learned respect and used only my own money, bearing in mind I only had a site in the first place because she needed one and I ran it for her).
I consider myself very lucky that I was diagnosed early in life and can now talk openly about it to people, and when around other people who have the same condition they see me as an equal, and I can understand them in a way most can't. I am now at university and for once I love the social side of life, and struggle with work. (Normally it's the other way around). Quite easy as I was sharing a hall with other students, and could simply walk up and knock on their doors and have a talk rather than having to phone or text, and didn't have to think of an excuse. I have made some of the best friends I've ever had there, and in a few months time will be living in a house with some of the friends I made for my second year at uni. Because they have lived with me, they know what I struggle with and accept it, and know what I am like. But I don't think I will ever be fully independant, as I get easily depressed when I'm on my own...

Now, look at me, then look at Gary. He has never been diagnosed until recently. I can only imagine that he has always known something was different about him, and spent much of his life feeling different from everybody else. As he was not diagnosed at an early age, he would not have had support or be taught how to deal with emotion or obsession, and even for me being taught how to deal with it, it does not stop extreme circumstances! Look what he did, he broke into the US military because of an obsession, and when obsessed it is like the mind of a child. Probably a big factor at the time of why he allowed himself to let his obsession to get the better of him is because when you have Aspergers you take rules literally (well, just about anything literally, not just rules, as I've said earlier!), and when everyone else breaks rules around you, you feel like they aren't really rules, they are just things to stop you getting the information you seek so much. I do not condone what he did, what he did was wrong, and from what I have read it is apparent that he has accepted that. But still, the US should not be extrediting him and lock him away, they should be giving him a security job, as he has the insight of someone looking for information who will stop at nothing to get it!
Note another thing: people with Aspergers get hooked onto one thing. And I feel bad that a lot of this I have typed out is talking about me... I wonder why... hmm.. anyway. Enough said. Just showing my insight...

What is the effect of a temporary impairment to a computer system when considered in terms of regular maintenance and repair activities which should be triggered by a system audit?

I wonder if the case of Ben Ami Kadish sets an espionage precedent? What other legal precedents related to this case exist in US history? Were Gary's acts pseudo-political on behalf of the public? If Gary sought intelligence information, did he act in the manner of a rogue spy or a proxy whistleblower?

Some of the comments and ideas from the Open Minds community-
http://lucianarchy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3953&page=13

For example – “Perhaps Gary could have argued that he acted as a conscientious attendant to the good peoples of the United States of America and her allies in the European Union and the United Kingdom. As an attendant to a concerned group of citizens, Gary may have pursued evidence of a breach of constitutional rights. He could be portrayed as acting in good faith under the manner of a proxy conscientious violator who served the political interests of these same citizens.”

ARTICLE 4 Political and Military Offenses
1. Extradition shall not be granted if the offense for which extradition is requested is a political offense.
Source: http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/pdf/pdf8/fco_pdf_usextraditiontreaty

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@Steven | August 2, 2009 9:55 AM
That would be like me breaking into someone's house to look at the decor and the police saying well on your way after all you meant no harm.
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No, you are comparing hacking into something with physically breaking and entering a physical entity or place. I would not break into somebody's house.
There's a big difference between physically breaking into somebody's house with malice, causing damage that must be repaired at a cost, and using a computer to gain access to something on another computer.

@ Steven - the discussions about the lack of US military computer security at the time are to do with the alleged claims of financial damage, which are hugely exaggerated. The real amount of this alleged financial damage goes towards determining whether this is a minor case or a serious one, which also then affects the possible length of a prison sentence, if found guilty.

If it is a minor one, then extradition does not apply, it has to be dealt with by the country in which the person whose extradition is being sought has been physically arrested i.e. here in the UK.

If, like it used to be for years under the previous Extradition Act 1989, under the 1972 treaty, and under previous treaties, some prima facie evidence of this alleged damage had been presented in court, at a UK extradition hearing, his legal team would have been able to cross examine it, and many of the frivolous claims would probably have been rejected.

If someone sprays graffiti on your garden wall, you would be charged with fraud if you put in a bill for compensation for architects fees and the building of a brand new house, but that is essentially what the US military are claiming financial damages for - brand new systems. They have suspiciously claimed $5,000 per computer. Unless $5000 "damage" is claimed under the US laws, then the US Federal authorities do not get involved in computer crime cases, they leave it to the local police, who do not usually get involved with international extradition cases on their own.

However, under the Extradition Act 2003, which has been used retrospectively against Gary (who was arrested in 2002), the USA no longer has to provide such prima facie evidence (which does not have to be the the full case evidence , just some of it), so they have never done so.

If the UK authorities want to extradite someone from the USA, they do still have to provide such evidence to a USA court (very right and proper), so this extradition case is unfair and unjust, no matter that it may be legal within the wording of the Extradition Act 2003.

No other country permits such a one sided extradition arrangement with the USA, so it is not as if the US authorities are not used to preparing a prima facie for extradition purposes.

Gary's actions may well have caused other "damage" to the US military, in terms of loss of face and embarrassment, but that is not what he has been indicted for, nor could or should anyone be.

He has not been indicted on any breaches of national security, which may, perhaps, be a disappointment to those people who believe that he might actually have found some of the "Free Energy" technology or "UFO evidence" he says he was looking for.

Remember that none of the legal proceedings and appeals so far have been a "fair trial", where evidence and witnesses can be cross examined, they have all been arguments about general "points of law". These also apply to everyone else in the UK, and have implications for any private personal or business use of the internet, much of which goes through US legal jurisdiction, which is why this case has been getting so much media coverage and opposition party political support, from the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Nationalists, Plaid Cymru etc. etc. - everyone except for the current Labour government, who cannot seem to admit that they were wrong.

just a very quick comment. I am not going to get into whether or not gary did anything wrong. He has admitted all of that. The thing I find extremely distressing though is the UK governments treatment of its own citizens. It's a disgrace. They are going to extradite this man to a country which regularly uses the death penalty and also has a recent proven track record of torture. Fair enough Gary won't face either of those two things, but why send him to a foreign jurisdiction for trial. As a UK citizen who comiited his crime in the UK he should be tried here in the UK for his crime. The British government is Americas lapdog. It's a disgrace. Your send your troops to die in Iraq and Afghanistan just to support the USA. You are making enemies just for the USA. And now you hand over one of your vulnerable citizens who needs your protection. He should be tried in the UK. Britain used to be its own power. It's just a US lapdog now. Do you think the French would hand over a French citizen in the same circumstances. Absolutely 100% NO. It's totally shameful.

I am so very concerned to hear that Gary is to be extradited to the U.S. It is so outrageous
that the law should rule in such a manner against someone who has not
perpetrated a crime against humanity but has possibly hurt only the pride of the
United States. I feel sure President Barack Obama would not be in favour
of such a ruling. 
The United States government should be 
congratulating him and offering him a post!
He has NOT passed information on, or sold it, but has simply illustrated
the shortcomings in the US system, and they should be immensely grateful
for this.  I stand firmly behind him and his family.
Ros Wilson

Labour's deputy leader Harriet Harman told the BBC it would be illegal to intervene over his extradition.

BUT if this were a woman involved - Harman would go into man-hate mode & scream for her to be released. Harman will do nothing simply because it is a male involved.

Johnson will do nothing as he's simply a traitor & spineless.

FG, do you respond to all comments?

Did Mr. Muirhead bother to respond to your last? I am curious as to his explanation?

WE'VE BEEN SUPPORTING GARY AT:

HTTP://PARANORMALDAILYNEWS.COM

Everyone keeps refering to Aspergers as a 'disability', its not a disability its high functioning autism, and autism is not legally classed as a disability!

NAS have said this when I called them up asking for info on what I am entiled too and its not reconised as one.

I have Aspergers and I class myself as normal. It is not a disablity it is a gift. The public cant tell that you have Aspergers unless they get to know you otherwise to them your just another person in society. We are just more intelegent than others and have trouble geting along with the non-AS people.

If society were to change its focus, Asperger's might not be considered a "disability". Even though it isnt one.

Gary and his Mum need to put up and shut up, he did something he should not of, now he is going to be punished or it.

This has gone on for too long now.

And the NAS are not going themselved any favours as they are meant to be impartial as they are a charity that serves all, they could lose their status over this, as they only offer adivice, their memorandums of association when they formed didnt have 'supporting individuals in court cases' in there. So they need to be careful, very careful.

Gift? I don't agree with the word "gift". Rather, "swap without choice". Something is taken away from you (such as the ability to socialise like everyone else), and in exchange you can do things others can't.

Well, at least our political and legal systems have helped demonstrate that the expression "running-dog imperialist flunkies" still has some life left.

Speaking of which, I wrote to Alan Johnson at the Home Office yesterday via the web site at http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk

why don't you take refuge in Iran, we have several number of similar people. well, you need to be able to fund yourself...

If everyone who supports Gary stops buying anything which is made in the US, and makes it publically known, then that will help.

You appear to have deleted a comment posted earlier.

Does this mean you only want approving comments?

He did it, he must serve the time. End of.

Oh, and I don't want my taxes paying for his imprisonment over here.

Anyone seen Shami Chackrabarti anywhere yet?

No?

Don't worry, Liberty will soon be on this particular bandwagon !

Does this mean that any action sanctioned by your President is void?

A few people here state that he has social issues, well another few people on here, Matt and Tony say that he has shown no problem with social issues in being places and on tv.

I agree, he seems to have ' put all this on' for the media, I saw him the other day walking with some people, (his state funded legal team no doubt) and he was acting fine, in fact he was lauging and joking.

He doesnt appear to be having any social issues here talking about what he did, with Richard and Judy. (Strangers to him, Studio full of strange people that he has not met before)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQhF6lApr8E

Answer me this.

How would you respond if he had hacked into YOUR personal bank account?

Answer me that, without the long winded drivel and feeling sorry for him.

Now he is too busy playing the victim.

Phil demonstrates perfectly why we are all concerned about this precipitous course of action against Gary. The debate seems to be descending to the level of excerpts from the script of the film "Deliverance."

In terms of what I would like to see achieved, ideally it would be the overturning of the extradition laws as they stand. But failing that it would be really nice to see President Obama sweep in and insist that all accept Gary McKinnon's compromised mental health issues and allow him to stay in this country although not necessarily let him off. As it stands currently America and Americans are getting really bad press for lacking in humanity

Just looking at the original indictment and report on cnn: http://edition.cnn.com/2002/LAW/11/12/military.hacker/index.html

It says at the bottom:
"
McKinnon faces a maximum penalty of five years in federal prison and a $250,000 fine for the New Jersey charges.
"

Note it says "maximum".
Where does this 70 years everyone's quoting come from??

This is a tragedy for Garry and his mother and I hope somehow he will be allowed to remain in UK. I have never understood why the US are so intent on having him extradited, it seems vindictive. He is a man with a form of high functioning autism and has displayed the compulsive behaviour (in his case a compulsion to seek out alien technology), that is often associated with autism. He managed, with no specialist software, to hack into top US computer sites, my guess is the US are more ashamed about their lack of security than any thing else. They have accused him of damaging their sites and causing millions of dollars worth of damage, he denys this and they have shown no evidence to sustain their accusation. Much as I feel for Garry and hope he does manage to remain in this country; my bigger fear is that the unjust and unilateral extradition law which enables him to be extradited in the first place, is addressed and overturned. This law was intended to allow terrorists to be extradited to the US from the UK and so far it has never been used for that purpose. It is a law that enables the US to accuse some one of something, show no evidence to sustain the accusation and then demand that person is extradited simply on the say so of the US. The US have been given rights over UK citizens even the Uk does not have!!As if this on its own wasn't bad enough, there is no law allowing the UK the same rights over US citizens. This in my mind is the real long term issue and regardless of the outcome of this particular case, THIS NEEDS ADRESSING. Because if it isn't, Garry will only be the first.
Incidently..............is there a petition or something to get this law overturned ??

The indictment and reports also make no mention of UFO's or "free energy", rather they have quotes such as :

"
He downloaded sensitive, but not classified, information about subjects that included Navy shipbuilding and munitions, it was alleged.
"

This together with the anti-US quotes he left on their systems, look more like a political/military hack than innocent searching for UFO's to me.

He has time to get used to the idea that he is going to a different place. He can be told, if he is aware then he shouldnt have a problem.

According to the NAS, people with Aspergers dont like 'sudden changes' well its not going to be a sudden change, he has had years, and months to be told and learn that he did wrong, and that he is going to another country.

He can take his Mother with him when he goes as his appropriate adult. (Shes just doing what any mother would and stick up for her son)

But at the end of the day, there are laws and NO ONE is exempt from the law, with the posiable exception of HM The Queen.

He is going, there is nothing we can do about it.
They have a right to ask for him to be sent.

Now lets stop all this drivel and feeling sorry for him. He got caught.

Now he is too busy playing the victim.

I have copied a photo from your site for my article on this case:

http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/1hzaxtdr9c09g/53

If you have any objection I will remove it immediately.

The entire province is burning here in Canada. Fire surrounds us. The planet is burning. Not just here - many other countries, like Australia.

The governments tell us lies about it to soothe us. But I know what it is all about. The thining of the ozone layer. It's petroleum.

As I inhale the smokey air I think about all of this trying to understand it and find a solution to this hell. It seems impossible. The human condition. Greed is in our nature.

But where there is will and vision, maybe. Even the most complex algorythms can be cracked...

This case is not just about IT Security. It is about us all. What motivates us, what we are, our humanity redefined.

::Using reverse logic::This case is NOT about::

protecting human rights;
open accountable government;
ethical business practices;

Given that we are all connected - on a motecular level - and on a socio-economic level. All global changes in policy or the environment or human rights, everything - affects ALL OF US.

::This case is critical. This case of Gary McKinnon IS about::

erroding human rights;
secret unaccountable government;
unethical business practices;

Law evolves. Not unlike humans. If this extradition law is allowed to proceed - it will mean that anyone who makes a US citizen loose profit - without evidence of this - can be transfered to the US for trial. This is DIRECTLY against the Magna Carta - the original purpose of law - and DIRECTLY against human rights - placing money above people.

Secrecy and tyranny. Abuse of due process and public funds. Non disclosure and conflicts of interest. This is on the present and future private agenda. How so? In any closed environment - grows opportunity. And one-sided laws promote it. Open the governments and see if you support where the money is REALLY being spent. What Gary saw is what threatens the government. If this case continues I can see the censoring of the internet - and even further to protect the secret agenda.

Environmental disasters - war and killing. This is not ehtical. But that is what we support by saying yes. Unethical business practices that create polution and war are the same forces which are behind the imbalenced treaty. Which was originally designed for terrorists and was never used for terrorist - instead used on every day people who caused a loss in profit or an alleged monitary loss. Gary McKinnon is not a terrorist. Terrorists are people and powers who kill or destroy for personal gain - like the US stealing oil fields from the middle east.

The sunset was blood red. And as I gaze at the strange orange hazed full moon floating above me in the smoke filled night sky - I ponder the likelyhood of the general population figuring it out before it is too late and stop...

Elle

I am sad to read so many posts here that show a complete misunderstanding of Aspergers, especially high functioning. The compulsion of following an obsession for someone with Aspergers is rather like an addiction. Alcoholics know they are harming themselves but often cannot resist the behaviour and it becomes all consuming. That is the only way I can describe it to non-AS folks.
Of course Gary did wrong, he knows that and readily admits it. However, did he cause the alleged 'damage' to the US IT systems as they claim and will they provide proof of this in court? Possibly not if they can claim 'national security'. If not, how can a trial be fair and on this basis he should not be extradited, he should be tried here in the UK?
Call me naieve and simplistic (as I suspect some of those posting here may?) but I see no gain for the US government in admitting in court that their IT systems were not secure and going after Gary rather than addressing the issue with those responsible for that IT security?
Gary's actions were a little like a 'secret shopper', inadvertantly testing the security of those sites and actually highlighting the flaws!
With respect, if you do not have Aspergers or know someone with it you cannot understand how an obsession can so easily take over your life and common sense.
And Elle...I hope yourself and family remain safe from the current fires in Canada.
Best wishes

This beggars belief. Uk citizens are not subject to US law whilst in the UK. If they succeed in this then we should all realise that our Government has sold us all out and thus we are all now defacto property of the USA. A country who's motto in the world appears to be 'might makes right'! Gary should be tried in the UK since an offence can only have been committed in the UK, anything else is an affront to common sense and good law. Still the UK Government is so scared of upsetting its special relationship as uncle sams bi**h that Gary it would seem is gonna have to suffer being scapegoat for uncle sams inadequate computer security.

you guys signed

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ExtraditionLaw/

Free Gary. What has been going on is absolutely disgraceful. Certainp eople "get away" with alot worse crimes, when a 40 year old, who is mentally vunreble with asperger's may be taken to the US and probably face US prison? Disgraceful, and disgusting. I myself have asperger's and i know what i went through at school.. Him in a US prison, will surely lead to suicide. I think he should be freed, along with compensation. They should experdite the people who actually cause harm. He should be either freed, or tried in the UK with alot lesser charge. The fact that he admitted hacking and didn't lie, like most people who cause harm do... And this experdation system is for terroists... It is clear he is not a terroist. And to let it linger with him and his family for 7 years, it IS taking the mick.

the user "yh" said how an obsession can easily remove common sense. I know this, having had first hand experience with obsessions.

So free gary, thats all i have to say, and that is what should be done.

And anyone who says he is playing the victim has a serious problem.

FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH:

Putting aside Gary McKinnon's Aspergers disability, it may be useful to note the following, when and if his legal team seek to use a comparitor in his case.

Putting aside Gary's Asprerges disability and viewing the recent form the US government has displayed in regards to espionage and operatives, one has to cite the recent case of Ben Ami Kadish.

Ben Ami Kadish is an US/Israeli dual citizen, who for over 20 years spied upon the US and delivered top secret military documents to Israel, to which he was arrested and in May of this year charged with spying, but merely given a $50,000 dollar fine, to which he then told the judge "No problem"!

Let it also be known that Ben Ami Kadish's handler, was the same handler, another dual citizen US/Israeli spy worked with, i speak of course of the jailed Jonathon Pollard, who today still sits in prison for his crime of spying against the US for Israel.

When Carl Cameron of Fox News did the expose that revealed to the world that Israeli spies were spying on the US pre 11th September 2001 and that many were arrested by the FBI following the Twin Towers destruction, yet released released,by Michael Chertoff, another dual citzen Israeli, no one has even had so much as a wrist slapping.

Now "our governmnent" would want us to accept a biased treaty, wereby we are told we must throw Gary to a government that has a two tier judicial system, whereby Israeli spies go free and others get locked up without adequate legal defence!

Furthermore the US judicial system has a history steeped in racism!

WHEN ISSUES SUCH AS THIS ARE IGNORED, ONE HAS TO ASK THE QUESTION, WHY THE PANIC OVER GARY?

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

BELOW, PLEASE VIEW THE CARL CAMERON FOX EXPOSE ON ISRAELI'S SPYING ON US PRIOR TO & ON 11th September 2001!

http://100777.com/usa/israeli_spyring

THERE IS ALSO THE OUTRAGEOUS CASE OF ROSEN AND WEISMAN,THE TWO AIPAC SPIES BEING LET OFF, BY VIRTUE OF DUAL CITIZEN ISRAELI'S LOBBYING FOR THEIR RELEASE.

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?p=1769687

Gary McKinnon is not a terrorist and as far as i know, he is not a dual citizen!

Finally, there is coming a time when the truth will be deemed an offence and an honest man a rare and brave entity.

Ooo er, me thinks the EU law which locks people up for a different conclusion to aspects of WWII, contravenes the UNITED NATIONS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS, ARTICLE 19.

Perhaps the EU human rights law, is illegal and nothing to do with human rights, if it prevents one taking an honest look at the "PARTY'S" version of recent events.

After all, it is "The Party" that controls the US!!

"As for not getting a fair trial in the U.S do you think the Americans are going to risk anything but a fair trial with the whole world watching."

Does anyone else want to reply to this?

These are just off the top of my head...

OJ Simpson
Michael Jackson
Rodney King Police
Anything to do with Guantamano Bay
McCarthy Witch trials
not to mention the "fair" election held involving George W Bush?

For my tuppence worth; it doesn't surprise me that the US want him extridited, but the cause of my dimay is (as other commenters have already pointed out it far better that I) is that the UK government are handing him over, gift wrapped for the world famous 'fair political' trails. Once again the British government answer to America's beck and call.

Know what I would do?
Seek asylum elsewhere - move my whole family -
And then Expose...

The truth might hurt sometimes.
But it's better than the private agenda.
For all of us...

Elle

My son has Aspergers syndrome. All Gary McKinnon has done is raised flaws in the U.S computer system. He should get a job not a jail sentence. Also if A U.S citizen had hacked our security systems do you think he would come here? I think not. Gary should be tried in this country, if he is to be tried at all.

Everyone should flee to NZ and claim asylem. It's one of the last sane countries left.

This coming from an Aussie, you know the world's going to hell!

I do not know all the details about the case, It does not interest me, if the pentagon has something to hyde on ufos (although almost surely they do hyde some other information, that would be able to blow up the US political system), and I do not care either, if Gary McKinnon suffers from asperger syndrome or not.

But despite all this, the accussations against him are ridiculous. And if this would not be enough, they are totally against my understanding of what the responsibility of a state for his citizens is, irrespective what some US lawyers may say (they come next to the devil in my opinion).

A state has the obligation to prevent any foreign influence on one of its citizens. We had a similar case in germany (Kurnaz), where the german government was actively engaged, not in freeing this person from guantanamo bay prison, but instead being an advocate for the US interests, instead of the own countries citizen.

And I do not understand, why you people in the UK offer all this credibility to your state. Did you forget the case of Jean Charles de Menezes, intentionally killed in the London underground by your police? Did you forget the numerous cases, where private data got lost (either in paper form, as cd, saved on a laptop) in incredible circumstances and incredible amounts? Did you forget, that you live under total CCTV control (especially in London), in a way even Orwell was not able to imagine?

I am a german, and of course, regarding our history, may be the last one to criticize the country, who is famous for its first democratic constituted system, and its longevity up to this date. But hey, I would really start to think about your government, that does not seem to secure the rights of its citizens, but instead is in a state of paranoia about terrorism and will follow the US, without any critique, into any sort of antidemocratic behaviour.

Even it there is Obama now, the people behind the current administration did not change, the same people that are responsible for waterboarding in guantanamo, for holding people under arrest without bringing them to justice, for running illegal prisons in foreign countries, for torturing iraqis in abu ghraib etc.

So it is high time to do something. I would wish there would be more courageous people like Gary McKinnon trying to make public all the lies and hidden information in any military organization. There are too many secrets out there, and most of them are neither good for each states citizens nor for a peaceful world in general. If someone should be brought to justice, than this certainly would be the military leaders themselves, the administration of G.W. Bush and so on. Not a single citizen with a possible mental illness and a personal interest in ufo conspiracies.

The reason Gary wants you to know is because he himself is alien.

Asperger huh?

OK.

It is disconcerting to live in a country under a government which seems incapable of protecting its own people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEcrryZ3ss&feature=player_embedded

Song for Gary

Don't jail him... the US are looking for a new head of cyber security - give him a job! Read it here:
http://blog.stormit.co.uk/?p=46

A whole day without Gary in the press, or on TV!
What a refreshing change. Im a little bit annoyed at the banks making all those profits though!

Im getting a bit bored of hearing and seeing this Gary lark, its been layed out whats happening.

The days are ticking away. The US have their right to question someone who accessd their systems without consent, password or no password.

I read the timeline of this case and he only got told he 'had' aspergers in 2008, great excuse for something he did years ago.

Aspergers is not an illness, or a medical condition, therefore there are no reaons why he cannot go to answer questions in the US.

As I said in my previous post, he has time to get used to the idea that he is going to a different place. He can be told, his Mother can tell him, instead of whinging to the world, tell him he is going somewhere, if he is aware then he shouldn't have a problem.

According to the NAS, people with Aspergers dont like 'sudden changes' well its not going to be a 'sudden change', he has had years, and months to be told and learn that he did wrong, and that he is going to another country.

He can take his Mother with him when he goes as his appropriate adult. (Shes just doing what any mother would and stick up for her son)

Now he is too busy playing the victim.
Get used to it mate, your going to America

They should be offering you a job not persecuting you. Please email me and tell me did you find any evidence of aliens?I think the quest is noble and would love to know if you found anything

Those two women freed by Bill Clinton are a mirror of Gary's case.

To North Korea they were spies who illegally entered their country.

But to the US they were innocents who were unjustly facing ten years' hard labour.

Can't we get Bill Clinton to rescue Gary from the UK's bizarre, self-serving totalitarian dictatorship?

Hello,

I independently came to a similar view as Russell English (| August 5, 2009 1:33 PM |
Don't jail him... the US are looking for a new head of cyber security - give him a job! Read it here).

I think it is sad what is happening to Gary. Especially given the seeming one way UK to US extradition treaty.

It seems that Gary is heading to the USA to be tried.

Given that he hacked not one but multiple high security USA systems including the Pentagon he must me more that just a "script kiddie" executing other people's code to hack. This would suggest Asperger's or not that Gary has a high degree of skill in hacking.

Given the USA is setting up a "Cyber Security" department to defend key US systems (military, power etc) from terrorist and or rogue state hacking why doesn't Gary's US Legal team (when they are decided) cut a deal with the US attorney general's office where he pleads gets a house arrest / tagging curfew /suspended sentence/ short jail time in the US and put him to work as a security consultant.

Gary could advise on the security flaws in the current systems that allowed him in and also to test security by trying to hack (with permission) the upgraded systems. They could also use his skills in a proactive offensive manner for cyber war again rogue states to spy on or cripple any cyber offensive abilities these states may have.

I see its been estimated that Gary caused more than $1 million worth of damage. If this figure is justified and upheld in a US court he should work on 50% of the market rate for a security consultant (paying US Tax) until he has paid the money back with interest. Even if that is 25 years.

If Gary does get this deal and decides to stray into unauthorised hacking - put a condition of imprisonment (in the UK, if permitted) as decided by a US court of law.

For me Gary if he done what it is alleged by the US he should be punished.
Its just what will be the best way for the US to get justice?
Will it be 30 years in a prison (US or UK) at cost to the US or UK goverment?

Or would it be better for Gary to put right his wrong by helping the US defend itself from Cyber terrorist/ rogue states?

Finally the problem with prison is that people meet new (criminal) friends to survive.
If Gary gets jail time how likely is that a criminal organisation would protect Gary from the harsh realities of prison life (beatings, rape etc) in return for his hacking skill?

How valuable are his skills on the Black market?

How much money would a rogue state/ criminal organisations/ terrorist be willing to pay to get Gary's level of hacking skill?

If Gary could hack the Pentagon think what he could to the fragile financial organisations?

Thanks for reading and good Gary.

Alan

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
read the preamble - the bit about rebellion against tyranny
and article 5:
no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or
degrading treatment or punishment

I am twelve years old and have asperger syndrome.
I can program in several languages and am extremely interested in computer
security, anyway -

It is time to revolt against "democracy" and to put in its place a government of the people:

val a' ilya tel' quessir!
power to all of the people!

One of the things you people need to understand is that in order to be hired by a corporation or a government agency, you need to show that you can be trusted with the access you are granted to sensitive information.

Gaining unauthorized access to government systems is not how you demonstrate you are trust worthy.

Usually when a court restricts your access to computers connected to the Internet you have demonstrated that you are not trust worthy.

Tell you what...all you people who think Gary should be given a job instead of going to jail for what he did...I challenge you to go to your personal bank and arrange for his employment....No???...I didn't think so.

Another quiet day in the press, even the Daily Mail have not printed anything about for two days...

Well, I think this is just another illustration of (and I use the term with a certain irony) "our government" acting as the US's lapdog.

As I understand it, the hacking was done from the UK, where the 'perpetrator' should be governed by British and not US law. Extraditing him to the US makes about as much sense as a US citizen being extradited to the UK to face charges of carrying a gun whilst in America!

As a nation we have lost all traces of what made Britain great, and I fear all dignity so scared are we of upsetting America.

If the US choose to place sensitive data on a computer system and then not secure it properly then 'serve them right'. No doubt the system was hacked shortly after some smug yankee 'expert' announced "this system is totally secure"!

Gary is just a man. If he can hack their system, then so can others. America should be thankful that he didn't publish what he found or nuke Washington!

Go Gary!

Illumun Pentaphraxis,

My employer can terminate "at will" my job and then I lose my home, my car, etc. My members of congress, who were democratically elected cannot save my job or home. My employer is not democratically elected. The corporate share-holders elect my corporation's board of directors (governors) who then elect (appoint) my employer. All the share-holders want is money. All my employer wants is his or her job that was given by the share-holders and pays 500 times the money that I'm paid.

Because corporations now control our lives, bring democracy to the corporation. It won't happen because corporations control congress. So, don't hold your breath.

I actually have a daughter who has Aspergers Syndrome and there is no limit to what she will do to satisfy her latest obsession, she is absolutely relentless. I believe him, I do not know him, but I believe him. Unless you live with someone who has the disorder, you don't know. Was it wrong to hack into the U.S. Military yes I completely agree. Did he do it with malicious intent, no. Perhaps the Military could use that unique mind of Garys instead of trying to destroy it. SAVE GARY!! God Bless America and Gary.

People you need to understand this disorder. It is real. My 12 year old grandson has Asperger's. Can you be extremely smart and profoundly naive at the same time? Oh yeah. If you don't think so, ask anyone who is close to an Aspie. I do not know Gary, but I would bet that his fascination with UFOs eclipsed any sense of wrong doing at the time. NOW he knows what he did was wrong. Should he be punished? Good lord, put him to work using his remarkable talent for the good! I live in Missouri, USA.

My son has recently been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome. He is much like Gary, when he is fixated on a topic, there is no stopping him. He will absorb every piece of information. I feel that the US government needs to take a serious look at this and realize that this young man did not mean any harm. I realize that it caused alot of trouble in terms of their security but obviously their security is still not tight enough if someone can still get access. This gentleman needs medical assistance and did not realize that he was doing anything wrong.

I will pray for the protection of Gary and his family.

Paula,
Canada

Today's 'Guardian' letters page - a message from Richard LeBaron, Charge d'Affaires, US embassy.
Defending the treaty as 'fair', he ends with 'The treaty protects the rights of British and American citizens while denying criminals safe-havens.'
Directly underneath this, a message from Alan Johnson MP ( otherwise known as the Home Secretary) His message backs up the US view totally, just as we have all come to expect of this government of creeps and toadies.
The Guardian heading above these letters is 'Extradition treaty is not biased to US', which strongly suggests they have been leaned on, as no counter-view is published.
Contrast this with the 'Morning Star' comment of August 1st. In a piece entitled 'Failed by his government, The Star says about Gary's case:
"He needed the protection of the British government and legal authorities and they have failed him.
The seeds of this failure were sown in 2003 when then home secretary David Blunkett signed an extradition treaty with US attorney general Tom Ashcroft, which dropped the previous requirement for the US side to provide prima facie evidence when requesting extradition of people from Britain.
Not only was there no parliamentary scrutiny of this treaty but its text remained unpublished for nearly two months.
In contrast, US Senate scrutiny began immediately, although the one-sided treaty maintained the requirement on the British side to establish 'probable cause' in seeking extradition of US citizens.
It has to be said that the US administration carried out its constitutional responsibility of looking after the interests of its own citizens whereas its British counterparts were obsessed with displaying their fealty to their chosen leaders.
McKinnon's mother Janis Sharp is justifiably fearful for her son's health and is appealing to Barack Obama to intervene in the case.
Let us hope that the US president displays more humanity than our own political leaders."
i kept this Morning Star editorial comment because it gets to the heart of this issue with such clarity, honesty and compassion.
I think our leaders care little for the truth, and even less for the citizens of this country who they should protect.
My deeply held belief is that Gary will emerge safely from all of this - but only through the efforts of those who care about him, and about justice. Sadly, our political and judicial leaders continue to fail in their duty of care.

It is refreshing to see that honest journalism isn't completely dead in the UK.

http://strange.corante.com/2009/08/06/gary-mckinnon-the-truth-is-out-there-just-not-in-the-british-press

McKinnon says he was looking for evidence of UFOs and alien technology. He may not have found any, but he has succeeded in creating a parallel world. There is the world of the facts and findings of the case available for anyone to see in court documents and rulings, and then there is the fantasy world created by McKinnon and his supporters.

I just thought this website could use a dose of the truth.

Mr Brown ought to be ashamed of himself!! He is bowing dowm to the Bullies AGAIN!! The boy did wrong! He has addmited it. So Mr Brown should be fighting on behalf of Mr Mckinnon. What happened to looking after your own??? Get a grip Brown!

I have Asperger Syndrome and only my co-morbid paranoia stops me from doing just what Gary did.

Re The Morning Star

Well, they would say that wouldn't they?

Formulaic extreme left wing clap trap that kept Labour out of office for years.

BhZr4

Sounds to me you feel powerless.
And given - that makes you not try to reclaim your power.

That illusion is lived by many. And so the cycle of abuse continues.

Two concepts to consider.

Profiling is a way to understand the nature of something - giving us a complete picture of it's behaviors and functions.
1. The 'Profile of Greed' shows us the weakness is cheapness.
2. The 'Profile of Control' shows us the weakness is numbers.

Think about it...

For example - If a large sum of people in London refused to pay their taxes until Gary McKinnon was granted a fair trial in the UK...

Elle

@ FGM - Kevin Anderson has made some effort to research his blog article, but his viewpoint is that of an American journalist based in London (although not a George Bush supporter), and so it is not strictly the view of part of the British press and media, as you imply.

He is still wrong about important aspects of this very complicated case, upon which he rests much of his arguments. There was no signed, trustworthy "plea bargain" document, only a verbal offer, backed up with the "if you do not plead guilty to everything, then we will throw the book at you, and as prosecutors we have the power to prevent your repatriation back to the UK to serve the rest of your prison sentence, if you are found guilty" threat, and the infamous threat to see Gary McKinnon "fry".

Remember, at the time of the "plea bargain" talks with his lawyers at the US Embassy in London, the Guantanamo Bay concentration camp was in full swing, with six British citizens held without charge, none of whom had ever "attacked the US Military", as Gary is accused of doing,

At that time, none of the US Supreme Court judgments and other legal cases around Guantanamo Bay , nor the prosecutions involving "extraordinary rendition" which kept suspected enemies of the US government from even getting a trial under the protection of the US Federal Court system, had started yet. These did not really get going until after the Abu Ghraib scandal came to light in 2004.

There was every chance that the US authorities would not honour the extradition "principle of specialty" (where you are not supposed to be charged with other offences, or moved to other legal jurisdictions, except those which are specifically mentioned in the original extradition request), which they do not always honour, even in normal cases.

The Home Office took an extra 6 months in getting specialist legal advice on the question of whether Military Order No. 1 might be applied, which would have taken Gary out of the US Federal Court system into the murky world of secret military tribunals, so even they were not clear that this could not happen to Gary.

Perhaps President Obama's administration might be less gung ho than George Bush's appartachiki, but the Guantanamo Bay concentration camp has still not been shut down as promised during the election campaign.

Thank you fg. I see you are deep in the parallel world that you have created. I remember reading one of Gary's interviews were said he used an American legal firm to negotiate or threaten the US by exposing information that he did not have.

I didn't just read the article. I read the entire court document that is available at the bottom of the article. This appears to be a very comprehensive conglomeration of the facts in this case. A person can only conclude that the document is accurate unless your court system is in the habit of publishing inaccuracies in their decision papers.

You really have to admit that Gary's claim that his intent was not malicious completely falls apart when he vows to "continue to disrupt at the highest level." To me that is malice of fore thought.

They have his computer. All the evidence they need is there I am sure.

Now your claim the journalist is wrong about important aspects of this complicated case. The initial plea bargain discussions is not an important aspect and it appears the only group that is making this case complicated is his supporters.

I also agree with the notion that the treaty is ultimately fair.

The UK only requires a warrant for arrest which requires probable cause to obtain.

The US requires probable cause.

You are claiming unfairness over simple legal semantics.

@ FGM - I shall give you the benefit of the doubt, for now, that you are not one of the previously banned internet trolls posting under another identity.

I also agree with the notion that the treaty is ultimately fair.

That puts you firmly in the your own "parallel world", very much in the minority here in the United Kingdom. Only the unpopular Labour Government maintains that position - all of the other Opposition Political Parties, the Conservatives (who will probably form the Government this time next year), the Liberal Democrats, the various Nationalist parties etc. are all committed to changing this unfair Extradition Act 2003 and the UK-US Extradition Treaty.

You do not appear to have noticed that Gary is not charged with making any "threats" against the USA.

Why anyone in the US military would have felt "threatened" by an alleged note left on the Windows desktop of a computer workstation (N.B. this was not even a web server home page defacement, which might have been seen by lots of people), is something which only obsesses some of the previously banned internet trolls.

By all means fg, ban me as you will.

It is obvious that opposing opinion equals internet troll to you. Banning these people is the only way to maintain the fallacy that you are trying to propagate.

Good luck with that.

Looks like Kevin is not backing down from the numerous comments that Gary's supporters are laying on him because he is publishing the truth.

http://strange.corante.com/2009/08/09/gary-mckinnon-response-to-comments

“The treaty, and the Extradition Act 2003, have also redressed the unequal balance that existed under the terms of the 1972 Treaty in which the UK required more from the US than they asked of the UK. The US was required to demonstrate a prima facie evidential case in support of extradition requests made to the UK, whereas the UK merely had to demonstrate ‘probable cause’.”

So if the truth be told, for over three decades the UK has held a higher standard for extradition requirements. The 2003 treaty only makes them equal now.

Hmmm?? Do you guys think you may be running out of legs to stand on?

@ FGM - nobody has been banned from here for bringing up valid points of criticism. The trolls who have been banned have all broken the clearly stated comments policy, by starting to make personal attacks and insults against other people, or against whole groups of other people (including Americans).

Behave yourself and be polite, and someone might bother to correct your misinterpretations. So far, your second hand arguments have not been very convincing.

FGM

Your argument in support for the transportation of citizens to other countries to stand trial. Sounds directly the same as the argument of officials here in Canada where they are busy moving "undesireables" from Vancouver to other cities - like my own - in preparation for the 2010 Olympics. Instead of providing supports for the homeless people, they are ditching them so that they can live their parallel world and pretend that poverty does not exist here. Very similar to your parallel reality about Gary McKinnon not deserving a fair trial in his homeland.

Fact is - you can justify it all you want - FGM and government officials - but it still doesn't make it right.

Elle

All quiet on the press font still. Four days and not a mention.
Have the Mail given up now?

Elle, Powerlessness and profiling. 1st powerlessness. Gary has to accept and also wait for his government to decide his fate in the extradition. But, what if there was more to Gary? What if he had parallel realities to his life, such as his music. He'll have his "thing" (music) whether he's extradited or not. Furthermore, his thing is more important than what the US government wants. So powerlessness, itself is inconsequential.

2nd numbers and control - instead of depending on himself for his quality of life, even in his own mind and even as a homeless person in the future, if Gary were to depend on others such as tax resisters and they let him down and Gary accepted that, he would be a little like Ghandi or Jesus. Maybe asking us for help and then accepting, not recieving any real help, from us and suffering a terrible fate would be a way to live with powerlessness.

Hello Elle (the real one),

You are close, in that world your Government believes that a person is responsible for themselves and that the only thing the Government should do is create opportunities for the homeless and not just pay them to remain homeless.

When it comes to responsibility (individual vs. governmental) the individual's responsibility is the most important and most neglected of the two.

When you actually understand that you are responsible for yourself and your actions a person stops looking to blame society for their mistakes and stops expecting the government to pay for their mistakes. Once they reach this point in life a person actually decides to stop making mistakes. They decide that they need to stop breaking the law and take control of the life that was given to them. It all starts with a very simple but powerful personal sense which is "responsibility." You either have it and accept it or you give it up and loose what control a person can have in their life.

As parents it is our job to pass this on to our kids and make sure they understand it. They may not realize the benefits of taking responsibility for their life until they are faced with the consequences of their decisions. Every time a parent tries to protect a child from their responsibility, they keep that child from becoming an adult that can be proud of their life and their accomplishments. Our society is full of these undeveloped people and this website is a perfect example of our failure to raise our children the right way.

Seems pretty simple.

He's accused of hacking into computers in the US.

He admits he did it.

Hack into US computers, go to an American jail.

Have fun Gary!

@ Sean - try reading the Legal Links on the right of this page, and you will see that there is nothing "simple" about this Extradition case, which has been dragging on for over 7 years.

Hacking into US computers from the United Kingdom is firstly illegal under United Kingdom law, which should take precedence, so he should be given a fair trial here, and not in the USA.

Hi,

I appeared on BBC Radio Newcastle and mentioned Gary in my interview,

Listen here,

http://www.richplanet.net/detail.php?dbindex=197

Richard D. Hall

BHLH-ZR4 (Mr. Grey) -
You have confussed the issue. My comments were pertaining to how people often feel trapped into society lifestyles that are based on the profit mantality, as well as the mental conditioning via corporations and government to make us believe that there is nothing that can be done to change it.

Fact is we HAVE ALL THE POWER to make it the way we want.

The fatal flaw of profit and control is cheapness and numbers. So the solution is to cut profits and increase support.

How this concept translates to Gary McKinnon is that if a large percentage of the population agree that a British Subject has a right to be tried in his homeland for a crime that is a common criminal offense and not a terrorist crime - and a small group of elected officials think otherwise - then there is other options available in which to force a democratic decision - such as civil disobedience. ie tax revolts, boycotts, protests, ecetera.

FGM -
That is a double - edged sword.
Those that pay the taxes - and those that make the laws.

If an individual is responsible solely for themselves - then why are we paying taxes and following the rules?

I know that if I could just go hunting every day I and live wherever I want I would be the wealthiest woman on the planet. But there are rules to follow for the good of the whole ( civilization ) and so I respect that - and comply.

But the problem is when the rules are not fair or they are partial to some group or that benefit some people and exclude others. For all things equal.

For example - corporations that are allowed to polute my air for profit. Or the extradition law that is abusing my fundamental rights.

Then we must ask ourselves - who is responsible?
The individual or the whole?
And this is where we get back to ETHICS.
Remember ethics?

How we define this planet?
Profit or People?
If it is profit - throw ethics - and I say, no rules apply! A N A R C H Y ! ! !
If it is people - consider ethics - and protect fundamental rights.

Elle

fg,

the library that I'm at has this SafeEyes 2005 filter that always interferes with my posts. Did you get the following? Thanks and sorry for the doppleganger.

Ellie and FGM (Free Gary McKinnon) you both made it too simple. A child in America who receives a rotten education, while having inadequate nutrition and health care, does not have the opportunity to make the decisions as an adult to start her or his own business and enjoy a good middle-class life (-style). She or he, because of a rotten education through no fault of their own can't make it in college and then get a good paying job.

Because of the system, in many cases, we DON'T have the power to make it the way we want. Corporate and government mental conditioning is just the icing on the cake.

If we, including children who are written off before they have a chance, because their parents are losers (let's say through their own choosing) and therefore end up in public education in America, are totally responsible for our success, then, more than 60% of us wouldn't be overweight and Ellie wouldn't find 87% of us annoying because of our level academic underachievement.

There's money to be had feeding off of others' misery and failings. At most American colleges today, there's remedial math classes, English classes, etc. to get the new students up to speed. It's the system that's at fault. So, we have to conclude that the system is the problem in Gary's case.

Again, you both continue to think it is ok to blame others for a person's lot in life. Poor education, poor nutrition, poor economics, poor parents. It is all the same. A person spends the first quarter of their life at the whim of other peoples mistakes and influence. The other 3/4 of their life is theirs to choose.

You received a poor education, then learn. Read books, learn a skill, write out your thoughts, and improve yourself. You can control this. Our governments have created libraries, job skill training and education opportunities. It is a slow and arduous process, but their is no such thing and immediate gratification when it come to becoming the person you were meant to be.

In America you are guaranteed the right to the "Pursuit of Happiness." You must achieve it on your own.

If you give up, if you accept your failure, you have no one to blame but yourself. You can blame everyone along the way for how tough you had it, but you can not blame anyone or anything for your failure. Even prisoners who are influenced and controlled more that other people can do this.

When a person realizes that the free ride their parents, government or circumstance provide them is not worth the price you give by relinquishing responsibility for your life, it is then that a person may find the path they were meant to follow.

Maybe six months ago, I claimed that Gary had made the correct decision in fighting the extradition because President Obama was "flip - flopping" on his campaign promises. Now the experts have caught up with me. I am always available for the most prescient free advice and analysis on Gary's behalf. Stay tuned because I am on the leading edge. It will be proven that Gary is a victim of subliminal seduction by the Pentagon using a very advanced version of the "dumb terminal." Gary will go free.

Our Extraordinary Dream Killer
Jim Kirwan
8-12-9
http://www.rense.com/general87/extr.htm

"Thanks to Obama's unique style of breaking promises a new series of columns must be added to our fact-checker's notebooks. Instead of just listing the promised policies with a yes or no blank to be filled in with the date-we must add some other
columns: "Retracted," "Withdrawn," "Reconfigured" and Reversed."

"In this way the public that loves to check facts can keep track, not just of how many campaign promises were kept, but they can also keep track of just how far from what was promised, the 'leader' in question has not only strayed:

"But using these columns it can be definitely shown, exactly how often Obama has actually done the exact-opposite of what he initially promised prospective voters."

"Those that looked to this Obamanation to fulfill their dreams have finally begun to realize that Obama is, in reality, the main blunt-instrument being used as the Dream-Killer for hundreds of millions of people, regardless of the category of government action in which he was expected to act-in exactly the opposite way; on every path where he continues to frustrate and condemn the will of the public to lives of total servitude; without any hope of anything that might ever alter these lifelong sentences' of destitution..."

Looks like Gary wont be going anywhere, he is on the verge of committing suicide. I hope the politicians are pleased with themselves.

FGM

Unfortunately you missunderstand.

To clarify - taking responsibility means that the government / politicians / officials have a responsibility to protect the fundamental rights of individuals.

Fundamental rights and freedoms are those clearly stated in the original purpose of law as stated in the Magna Carta - http://www.constitution.org/eng/magnacar.htm
-------------
38. No bailiff for the future shall, upon his own unsupported complaint, put anyone to his "law", without credible witnesses brought for this purposes.

39. No freemen shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor send upon him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.

40. To no one will we sell, to no one will we refuse or delay, right or justice.
------------
The United Nations also has outlined the specific rights of the individual in the document The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/b1udhr.htm
------------
Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,
...
Article 3

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
...
Article 5

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
...
Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
...
Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
...
Article 10

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.
...
Article 11

1. Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

2. No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.
...
Article 14

1. Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

2. This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.
...
Oh and don't forget::

Article 21

3. The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government

And to clarify another point - our governments HAVE NOT created libraries, job skill training and education opportunities. WE THE PEOPLE have created these things and have done so with our own money through taxation. Without our money they would not exist. So it is the other way around - they are dependant on us. And if they are not acting in our best interest then they should be extracted.

There is too much private interest influencing our political systems. Thus the concept of open government is a perfect solution. Then we can see where our money is going and vote on bills we want to support.

Protecting the human rights of Gary McKinnon to have a fair trial in his homeland - is protecting everyone's rights.

Elle

@ Elle - none of the text of either the Magna Carta nor of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights are part of any written legal constitution or legislation in the United Kingdom, so there are no penalties if the Government breaches any of the principles.

Some, but not all, of the principles have been incorporated, indirectly, into things like the Human Rights Act 1998

No-one is making a mention of the chinese govt [hackers] that are trying to get into any site that they do not areee with. e.g the Melbourne film festival etc. etc.
Why doesn't someone stand outside a shop selling Microsoft software with signs telling the whole world how bad it is. BOYCOTT!!:)

There's three world blocks.

1. The U.S. Military Industrial (Intelligence) Complex (M.I.C.) - Microsoft is most likely a part of this block.

2. The Old World Order - Illuminati, Freemasons, Royalty (but not the British monarchy), an exceedlingly large religious denomination that Philip Gardiner writes is behind all of the conspiracies, Knights Templar, etc.

3. The Chinese.

The U.S. has the alien technology recovered at Roswell and the other two blocks want in on the action. But, M.I.C. aren't sharing. That's why the M.I.C. wonders if Gary's hacks were part of the Old World Order's attempts to acquire their secrets. But, whatever Gary found and shared with us is also known by the Chinese. So, it's just academic.

I know now, why Gary got into the Pentagon. The philosophy of low academic standards that's part of American society meant the people working for the Pentagon don't have the high standards of what borders on obsession which would have them backing everything up in triplicate every five minutes and have passwords for everything at all times that are changed every three weeks in foreign languages.

I'm here and our motto is "Good enough."

I am the mother of a teenage boy with AS. I just had the recent experience of trying to explain him to our local police. I can see how easily these things can happen. Intent has to count for something (AS people have a high regard for rules)Their obsessions sometimes just get in the way. England should defend her own citizens especially those who struggle to see the world as we do.

What has happened to good old fashioned justice for crimes being committed.

I wonder if he had hacked into peoples bank accounts to see what they had if there would be such a big campaign.

Of course the usual response will be he did not hack into bank accounts he was just looking for info on UFO's . . Well whats wrong with doing what the rest of us do and Google UFO's like the rest of normal world does no that was not good enough for our Gary he had to hack into a restricted goverment system for his info.

Stevie Boy

This isn't about hacking for info vs. googling for info. Gary has many times accepted responsibility for what he did. This issue is about the unjust extradition treaty. That the treaty was designed to deal with terrorists not common criminals. And that Gary McKinnon will not have a fair unbiased trial in USA.

Remember Guantanamo Bay? It is still in operation.

Elle

Fair comment Elle all i'm asking is why did Gary feel the need to hack into the U.S Goverment system and bypass several security firewalls when the rest of the normal world just Google's something for information.

How can people say he will not have a fair trial in the USA you cannot say that for certain you have no proof of this it is all an opinion i mean his supporters have already been Judge, Jury and Executioner with regards to a fair trial.

Can someone explain to me what this campaign is based on.

I.E is it Gary's condition or he will not get a fair trial or an unjust extradition treaty or the sentence he may receive in the USA or .. .. i mean the list goes on and on.

What would Garys supporters consider a fair sentence considering he has broke into a Goverment system in that i mean what would they consider to be resonable for this not alleged crime cause he has already confessed to it.

What do you want to happen Gary to be given a slap on the wrist £250,000 compo for the inconvience and sent on his way with a hardy smile.

I wonder why the UK Government, against the wishes of the US State Department, fixed it so the Scots could free someone convicted as a mass-murdering terrorist, but can't do the same for an autistic UFO-curious hacker? Perhaps Gary McKinnon doesn't have a friend with 42 billion barrels of oil...

Expect the U.S Goverment to now really push for Gary to be deported now we have let a mass murdering terriost go . . Sorry Gary but i think now you will just be a political pawn in this whole saga . .

Stevie Boy

Q1 - Gary accessed an unauthorized area because he made a mistake in judgement. I personally have made many mistakes in life. We should all get one chance - noone is perfect.

Q2 - He will not get a fair trial in USA because the mindset of USA is to mow down any enemies. He will be posed as a threat by the media, ect. The average time for this type of computer crime is somewhere around 18 months to 2 years - not 60 years in a max prison.

Q3 - The campaign is based on Human Rights - the right for all citizens to recieve fair treatment, protection, security and such vs. an experimental extradition treaty that is biased in favor of Americans - that many countries have already refused to ratify with the other UN member nations.

Q4 - You are right, it is a complex case, given all of the elements, ie. asperers. But in the end the greatest concern is the fair and just treatment of citizens. For others it could mean that if you could be shipped to USA if you offended them in any way. To me it could mean that without evidence they could ship me away for an alleged hacking incident without evidence. And treat me as a terrorist for 60 years.

Q5 - What I want is for Human Rights Law to be preserved globally. And that the planet never slips into the same lies and deceptions that caused Natzi Germany and such.

It is not right to ship someone to another country for a non-terroristc non-violent common type crime. Especially without evidence and given medical condition. I could understand this if he was the mastermind of 911 - but he is not. And even then there would have to be valid substanciated evidence.

Elle

@ Steve Rowe - Gary has not even been charged, let alone tried or alone convicted, of anything.

He is innocent until proven guilty, in a fair trial, based on actual evidence, not hearsay or mere allegations.

All the Court hearings and Appeals in the UK and to Europe, so far, have not been an actual trial, they have only considered the legality of various points of extradition law.

Again I find it very funny.

@fg: I have seen more that one post where you have said that Gary is not innocent. Not to mention all the other post that say Gary has admitted his guilty. Which one is it?

Innocent Until Proven Guilty or

Admitted Guilty Person Who Didn't Really Mean to do it Because he Suffers from a Personality Disorder that is Known for People who are Meticulous About Following the Rules but for some Reason Gary Decided not to Follow the Rules.

I wish I can say I was sorry, but you folks really need to smell the BS that you are shoveling on this site.

http://www.bloggernews.net/121967

This link says it!

@ FGM - which part of "innocent until proven guilty" do you not understand ?

There should be an actual, fair, criminal trial, here in the United Kingdom (not a perfunctory extradition hearing under the Extradition Act 2003) where witnesses and computer forensic evidence and evidence of actual financial damage, can be cross examined by the defence lawyers.

The test for proving criminality in the United Kingdom, and even in the US civilian court system, is "Beyond Reasonable Doubt", which will be hard for any prosecutors to convince an impartial jury of, given that so many other people, from all around the world, appear to have had access to the same vulnerable US Military systems, at the same time as Gary did, for several years.

No such trial has yet taken place, even though the legal proceedings on points of law (not on any evidence) have been dragged out by Government and Judicial system delays, for over 7 years now.

Public statements by Gary in the press, or even a partial admission of guilt to some, but not all, of the alleged offences to the Crown Prosecution Service, may, or may not be accepted by a real Court.

Your mocking tone about Gary's medical condition, which has not been disputed on medical grounds by the UK or USA Governments, or by the learned Appeal Court Judges, borders on insulting many other entirely innocent sufferers of Asperger's Syndrome.

Politicians and Legal Pros have effectively made a complete joke out of the entire justice system.

Thats Latin for Dieu et mon droit, right? A joke - a bad bad joke.

And we must respect the law? What?

I think, personally, that the entire case should be washed. And Gary then can file a Billion dollar Civil Lawsuit for the abortion of justice that he and his family have had to endure for 7 years.

Elle

Oh, I completely understand innocent until proven guilty and as you say the standard for a guilty verdict is the same in both countries. While it is your opinion that a Jury in the US is not impartial towards Gary; which I highly doubt is justified because there are very few people in the US who know or following this 7 year legal struggle. It is my opinion that a UK jury would not be impartial toward the victim in this case.

Your whole argument of multiple countries accessing the US computers comes from one source-Gary. He too will have to offer proof that this is true. If the Government made images of the damaged computers there would be evidence of "others" besides Gary's access on the computers. His defense team will have access to these images and will have to go through them to find this evidence if it is true. I have read were Gary said he ran a netstat on the computer and saw other IP addresses from other countries in the results. Did he happen to see if the IP addresses in the netstat list were actual connections or the results of a port scan? I know my personal firewall is scanned everyday by computers in China, Brazil, Russia etc. But they did not access the computer.

Just from reading the court documents the US has provided sufficient probable cause to believe Gary committed these criminal acts. They seem to be ready to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt in open court. The US has agreed to treat Gary fairly and provide what ever medical or mental treatment and counseling he may require. I see no reason why he should not be required to take personal responsibility for his actions and have his day in court.

The seven year drag out as you say does not appear to be the result of the Government or the Judicial System. It appears to be the result of Gary's desire to not take responsibility for his actions. He has the right to a speedy trial if he would only ask for one.

The US and UK governments have acted within the law without prejudice and with due process. Any further delay would be a waste of time.

Let him stand trial. Let them prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in open court if they can. Let Gary defend himself with the aid of his very capable legal team. It is going to happen either way.

@ FGM

While it is your opinion that a Jury in the US is not impartial towards Gary; which I highly doubt is justified because there are very few people in the US who know or following this 7 year legal struggle.

How is it possible for a jury at the Eastern District of Virginia, in Alexandria, not to be composed of people who either work directly for the US Federal Government or its sub-contractors, or who have family members who do so ? It is physically surrounded by the Pentagon, and by several of the US Military and Intelligence agency organisations which Gary is accused of hacking into.

How can jury members in such an area not feel themselves to be under peer pressure, or fear for their job or promotion prospects, if they find someone like Gary, who is being portrayed as "attacking the US Military", not guilty ?

There are 11 other US States where Gary could have been indicted (there is a separate indictment in New Jersey) , but presumably this particular court was chosen, because of its very high conviction rate.

The seven year drag out as you say does not appear to be the result of the Government or the Judicial System.

Nonsense - that is precisely what the long delays are due to.

In what way could Gary or his legal team have created the delay of over 3 years between his arrest in April 2002 and the the first UK Extradition hearing in June 2005 ? He had not been charged with any offence in the UK during this time, or later.

That delay was entirely due to the USA and UK Governments and bureaucrats.

Another factor seems to have been the political spin, media management and lack of decision taking, in the months before both the Presidential Election of November 2004 and that of November 2008, when any story which highlighted US Military and Government incompetence was drowned out by the political rhetoric.

District Judge Evans "regretted" the delays in the case, which had nothing to do with Gary McKinnon, when he approved the extradition request in July 2006 i.e. another year after the first extradition hearing.

The Home Office under the the then "not fit for purpose" Home Secretary John Reid took an extra six months to get further detailed and expensive legal advice on the US constitutional law, such as it is, around Military Commission Order No. 1 (.pdf), which set up Military Tribunals to deliberately avoid the civilian US justice system.

Nobody, especially not the accused, can speed up or slow down the High Court of Appeal or the Law Lords in the House of Lords - the timetables always lead to delays of months or years.

I know my personal firewall is scanned everyday by computers in China, Brazil, Russia etc. But they did not access the computer.

If the US Military internet firewalls had been in place, or had be configured properly, then neither Gary nor anybody else from China or Russia (or from the rest of the USA) would have been able to make any such file sharing connections or port scans.

Such misconfigurations do inevitably happen from time to time, but they should be detected and then fixed, by regular penetration testing security audits. These audits were either not done (which seems unlikely), or their findings were deliberately ignored, due to senior management incompetence or corruption etc., not just for a week or a month, but for several years.

Let him stand trial. Let them prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in open court if they can.

That is exactly what Gary and his supporters have been demanding for several years now - but here in the United Kingdom, not in the USA.

The judicial process as laid down in the flawed Extradition Act 2003, is not the same as proper, fair justice.

fg-wrote:

How can jury members in such an area not feel themselves to be under peer pressure, or fear for their job or promotion prospects, if they find someone like Gary, who is being portrayed as "attacking the US Military", not guilty ?

Now this is nonsense. There is no way that a person's employment would predispose a person to assign guilt because they work for the victim. The US is not some third world country. The jury selection process is as fair as it can get. Gary's defense lawyer can challenge any jurist during the selection. If they want to waste their challenges because a person is employed by the government that would be foolish. I would be more worried of those jurist who have been victims of hackers.

If the defense believes there is sufficient grounds to believe a change of venue is required for a fair trial, they can request a change of venue and argue that merits of the request.

In what way could Gary or his legal team have created the delay of over 3 years between his arrest in April 2002 and the the first UK Extradition hearing in June 2005 ? He had not been charged with any offence in the UK during this time, or later.

Well, from what I read, Gary was offered a plea agreement which he was advised by his legal team to take but he turned it down because "it wasn't in writing at that time." First foolish delay. Plea agreements are only written once they are accepted in terms and before they are later ratified in court. If the defendant does not like or accept any part of the plea agreement they can back out of it at any time prior to being accepted by the judge.

Then I read that Gary hired a US based law firm to "threaten" the US with disclosing information that he did not have. Foolish delay #2. They had his computer. They knew what information he had access too.

Now, I don't know all the fact and I am not quick to make foolish assumptions, but just looking at this, there were some 90 plus computers that had to be examined and documented. I don't know how long this would take, but I could guess it would take at least a year.

So when you say

Nobody, especially not the accused, can speed up or slow down the High Court of Appeal or the Law Lords in the House of Lords - the timetables always lead to delays of months or years.

The same is true of the US Court System. No one can speed up the process except the accused by taking the plea agreements that are offered. I know that Gary's supporters rely heavily on mis-information and conjecture (i.e. GTMO incarceration and 70 years sentence) I especially like Elle's law suit idea...priceless. But the fact is that he will probably be sentenced to 3-5 years, of which he will probably spend the majority of the sentence in a UK prison. All these appeals are just delaying the inevitable.

It is difficult to teach personal responsibility to a child. It is even harder to learn personal responsibility as an adult.

@ FGM - You are wrong.

There is no way that a person's employment would predispose a person to assign guilt because they work for the victim

That is obviously not true.

Then I read that Gary hired a US based law firm to "threaten" the US with disclosing information that he did not have

How about naming them then ?

You cannot, because that is also not true.

I know it can be tough keeping up with all the facts, fibs and out right fallacies that are posted on this site and in the numerous interviews and articles that can be found on this subject.
But I didn't have to go far to dispute this statement

How about naming them then ?

You cannot, because that is also not true.

Jon Ronson's interview did not name the public defender, but the quote seems to be pretty explicit.

In return, Gary offered a somewhat hare-brained counter deal, via a Virginia public defender. "I made a sort of veiled threat to them. I said, 'You know the places I've been, so you know the stuff I've seen' kind of thing." He pauses and blushes slightly. "That didn't work."

"So you were saying, 'If you go heavy on me, I'll tell people what I found'?"

"Yeah," he says. "And I found out that my landline was being bugged, so every time I was on the phone talking to a friend about it, I made sure I'd say, 'All I want is a quiet life, but if they really want to drag me through it, I'll drag them through the shit, too.' "

"And what would you have dragged them through the shit about?" I ask.

"You know," says Gary, "the, uh, Non-Terrestrial Officers. The spaceships. 'The whole world thinks it's cooperating in building the International Space Station, but you've already got a space-based army that you refer to as Non-Terrestrial Officers'."

There is a silence.

"I had very little evidence," he admits. "It's not a very good bargaining chip at all, really, is it?"

In case you want to read the whole thing here is the link to make it easier to find. It is one this website, so it should be reliable...right?

http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/freegary/2005/07/gary-mckinnon-interviewed-by-jon-ronson-for-the-guardian.html

So fg, it appears you are wrong. I suspect you know this, but you would not let that become public. I would be even more surprise if this posting is allowed to go through.

@ FGM - so you cannot actually name this alleged "US based law firm", can you ?