The Judicial Review of aspects of the handling Gary McKinnon's extradition case (but not an actual trial where alleged evidence and witnesses can be cross-examined) is taking place this afternoon and, tomorrow.
Meanwhile, those of you who have been touched by Gary McKinnon's plight, and that of other British people facing extradition to the USA, and of Asperger's Syndrome or Autism sufferers, may be interested in this music track:
http://www.freegarymckinnon.co.uk
CHICAGO - CHANGE the WORLD
original song by Graham NashThis is a Plea to Barack Obama to come from Chicago, to help Change the World and to allow Gary McKinnon to have his life back
See the previous blog entry: David Gilmour to sing on "Chicago" protest song in support of Gary McKinnon
Online donations via PayPal will allow you to download this music track, featuring the talents of famous musicians: David Gilmour CBE, Bob Geldorf KBE, Chrissie Hynde and Gary McKinnon.
Donations to Asperger Syndrome and Autism Causes and supporting the fight to allow Gary McKinnon to remain in the land of his birth. Gary McKinnon and every other British Citizen has the right to a trial by his peers - Gary has no peers in America.Monies will go to support the Autism Research Centre (ARC) and the National Autistic Society (NAS)
A CD, also featuring music by other artists, will be soon be available via EMI.
andy
Gary is responsible for his actions and no amount of ufologistisms will help him squirm out of the consequences.
Elle Hart, Elec.Eng.Tech.
Did NSA Put a Secret Backdoor in New Encryption Standard?
http://www.schneier.com/essay-198.html
"But today there's an even bigger stink brewing around Dual_EC_DRBG. In an informal presentation (.pdf) at the CRYPTO 2007 conference in August, Dan Shumow and Niels Ferguson showed that the algorithm contains a weakness that can only be described as a backdoor.
This is how it works: There are a bunch of constants -- fixed numbers -- in the standard used to define the algorithm's elliptic curve. These constants are listed in Appendix A of the NIST publication, but nowhere is it explained where they came from.
What Shumow and Ferguson showed is that these numbers have a relationship with a second, secret set of numbers that can act as a kind of skeleton key. If you know the secret numbers, you can predict the output of the random-number generator after collecting just 32 bytes of its output. To put that in real terms, you only need to monitor one TLS internet encryption connection in order to crack the security of that protocol. If you know the secret numbers, you can completely break any instantiation of Dual_EC_DRBG
Even if no one knows the secret numbers, the fact that the backdoor is present makes Dual_EC_DRBG very fragile. If someone were to solve just one instance of the algorithm's elliptic-curve problem, he would effectively have the keys to the kingdom. He could then use it for whatever nefarious purpose he wanted. Or he could publish his result, and render every implementation of the random-number generator completely insecure."
Sorry - I'm too busy with Dual_EC_DRBG to respond to your silly comment Andy - all I have to say is Gary has taken full responsibility for his actions but I wonder if anyone is going to take responsibility when Dual_EC_DRBG is broken?
Elle
matt tierney
you have my support matey, pentagon wants what
you have, make a deal when it is appropriate,
not before.. there are many people who see that
this is hypocrisy.. The pentagon would not think
twice about listening in on private conversation
by hacking in Emails, Phone lines; just check on
yale and MIT research, RFID chips, fingerprinting
schoolchildren even in the UK; and the scrapped
proposals of (TIA) your an asset man, they
should be hiring you...NOT FIRING. dont let em
scare you.. I also am an aspie, that sees the
world in his own unique way, and doesn't believe
what he is told without researching for
himself. dont forget matey the purpose of
civilisation is to eradicate any and every
diverstity, that is what civilisation stands
for. to be civilised. If you get stuck. do get
in touch and we will see what we can do.
matty.
fg replied to comment from andy
@ andy - that is something which a Court in the United Kingdom could and should decide, which is what all these legal appeals and judicial reviews against extradition on points of law, are all about.
Gary has always said that he is willing to be tried here in the United Kingdom, and if necessary, to serve time in prison in the UK, where he has a chance of a fair trial and of a proportionate punishment, rather than in the USA, where he does not.
Jeff
He knew what he was doing. It's a crime in both countries. His condition is being exaggerated, and is far less severe than Autism, and that fact has been well documented. I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for him. He played around and got caught. He would have been better off pleading a dysfunctional family and sexual abuse from his parents.
It's nice to know that there are people out there that are willing to fight for the underdog, but anyone supporting this wanker is having the wool pulled over their eyes.
fg
@ Jeff - nobody, least of all Gary , is claiming that he is entirely innocent.
This is all about getting a fair trial, under United Kingdom law, for a British citizen, who was arrested in the UK, with more than half of the alleged evidence (PC hard disk, dial up modem, UK Internet Service Provider log files) against him having been seized in the UK.
Claire
@Jeff and others.....you clearly have very little understanding of Aspergers.
Gary deserves a fair trial in the UK.
We have to make a stand angainst the US and their bully boy tactics.
Stan
we are gonna extradite you gary. you broke the law. you are coming to the US to face justice. real justice...not the UK kind.
sincerely, USA
Amy
I hope Gary can stay in the UK for trail. The US wouldn't have it if their citizen were extrodited from the USA to here.
Being tried here would be safer and easier on the man, rather then a long flight and some ridiculous amount of time in jail. Prehaps the USA should look into their protection and beef it up, rather then throw toys out of the pram. This guy is as much a threat to them as I am to a tank.
Elizabeth
My heart goes out to you gary,I just want to cry for you. Anyone who has lived with someone with aspergers will fight to keep you in the UK with your family. My son has aspergers and he is totally oblivious to the world outside of his. He has no comprehension of law and order, right and wrong and is totally focussed in whatever he sets his sights on. Simple changes in his life causes him extreme distress and he is an adult in his early 20's. The Labour MP's who hung you out to dry yesterday should be ashamed of themselves and having been a Labour supporter all my life, they can all now get stuffed! When you see how UK treats proper criminals and won't extradite them back to their own country, it makes me ashamed to be British. God Bless You.
Elle Hart, Elec.Eng.Tech.
Stan || Jeff || Andy
::You all have one thing in common::
What amazes me is the mental state of believing without knowing. I call this a kind of syndrome - the opposite to Aspergers - where instead of seeking truth to the nth degree obsesively - one adopts unsubstanciated claims as fact. Similar to the belief that blind faith will save the world aka religeous propaganda. And in a lot of ways it emulates dillusional behaviour. To assume that just because the government who has designed the rules - actually follows the rules themselves.
Stan && Jeff && Andy
Only full-disclosure can reveal the truth in this case - unless you have personally seen the inside or unless you work for the inside // this is not likely to occur
So choose your words carefully;
Elle
RSA Public Key {Sha1}
3048 0241 00A8 CBCA C93A B066 3751 EBA8 46A3 9431 2BB8 924A 8EB3 0C8D C055 18C2 5EBE A2AD 629B D40E 4EC4 A496 5413 8C3F 81A2 1B71 74D2 2032 F4BB 6A67 B4EB D545 D34A 32ED DF02 0301 0001
Michelle
Have you ever met or got to know anyone with Asperger's Syndrome Andy?
They do not and cannot understand rules & regulations in the same way as you and I. They are programmed with a non-conformity that is hard to fathom or understand but nevertheless it is there and it is innate. It's part of the 'disability'. It would be immoral, unethical and completely unjust not to take it into consideration in any judgement.
I hope one day you get to know someone with the syndrome, it will change you. It did me and for the better.
Jon Sorensen
I said it many previous times and so again, a heartfelt Good Luck,
Gary. Stay in the Light
Darren
I have been following this case with some curiousity if for no other reason than just to see how it turns out.
Obviously his mother feels very strongly about this and i don't pretend to fully understand his condition but at the same time a serious crime has been committed here and the americans are looking to make an example of someone for this crime otherwise they are going to get all the hackers from around the world coming up with every excuse in the book for trying to hack into their goverment system looking for all sorts of information. The UK goverment has good relations with the US goverment and that is not going to risked for one man who is to all extent purposes very much in the frame for this crime.
Now i have read that going to America for trial and then getting 'banged up' for a number of years there would be a major disruption to his mental health but even if the trial was in the UK he still stands to get banged up for 5 years anyway so would that not be still a major disreuption to his routine etc ? or are we saying we'd prefer the trial to be the Soft Touch Justice System of the UK where he will actually plead his case and condition and more than likely get a lot of sympathy of the judge and jury.
Regardless of whether he was looking for UFO's he broke into one of the top secure goverment networks on the planet, personally i think the Americans should recruit him but that is their choice.
At the end of the day his condition does not excuse his actions and it does not matter which country he is in for the trial it will still be a major disruption to his rountine.
As for not getting a fair trial in America that is just a smokescreen all that is happening here is looking for the soft touch trial.
You do the crime you do the time . . simple
Nefertiti
@Darren
"a serious crime has been committed here"
Wrong, it is alleged that a crime has been committed.
"getting 'banged up' for a number of years"
On paper, it's 60 years, quite different from 5 years, and in a horrendous prison system that is always being criticised.
"As for not getting a fair trial in America that is just a smokescreen"
You really should research this. US sentencing guidelines of foreign nationals is a deep and complex subject and full of examples to counter your suggestion of a smoke-screen.
"You do the crime you do the time . . simple"
Unfortunately the entire matter is far from simple and you are ignoring many issues and commenting upon some where what is actually simple is the level of understanding you bring to bear on them.
Elle Hart, Elec.Eng.Tech.
Gary will not recieve a fair unbiased trial in USA. The USA has a long history of human rights abuse, internationally and Guantanamo Bay detention centre has not even been closed yet. In fact, there is talk to simply move the facility to a new location.
"President Barack Obama has stated that he intends to close down the detention camp and is planning on bringing detainees to the United States to stand trial by the end of his first term in office. On January 22, 2009, three executive orders were issued by President Barack Obama, although only one of these orders explicitly deals with policy directed at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, most noticeably, the camp's closure within one year. All three could possibly impact the detention center, as well as how any detainee future or present will be held by the United States. While mandating the closure of the detention facility, the naval base as a whole was not subject to the order and will remain operational indefinitely. This plan was thwarted for the time being on May 20, 2009, when the senate voted to keep the prison at Guantanamo Bay open for the foreseeable future and forbid the transfer of any detainees to facilities in the United States. Senator Daniel Inouye, a Democrat from Hawaii and chairman of the appropriations committee, said he initially had favoured keeping Guantanamo open until Obama produced a "coherent plan for closing the prison."[25] As of May 22, 2009, policy is currently being drafted with an aim toward compromise."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_Naval_Base
Extradition was originally designed for terrorists. The term "terrorist" was created by politicians to cover anything that is against private political agenda. However, the term is growing to include non-violent crimes as well. Soon it may include everyone. The move to have hackers seen as terrorists began years ago by creating a "threat". These are the same tactics that Hitler used to manipulate the general public - have we already forgotten? Gary is not a terrorist and should not have been treated as one in the first place.
Emmanuel Goldstein of 2600 said: "This kind of threat, even if made idly, can only serve to further alienate hackers from mainstream society and help to spread the misperceptions we're constantly battling. And what happens when someone in another country decides that the United States needs to be punished for its human rights record? This is one door that will be very hard to close if we allow it to be opened."
http://www.2600.com/news/view/article/362
Elle
Andrew
The problem here is that Gary's supporters have a very thin mitigating factor in using Aspergers. Virtually everyone can be placed somewhere on the Autistic spectrum. If someone with a drink problem commits a serious crime such as causing death by dangerous driving are they guiltless in a moral sense because they are alcoholics? Few would say they were. Hacking requires concentrated and delberate infiltration of systems which are quite obviously private - otherwise they would not need to be hacked. Gary could not have been so badly impaired by Aspergers so as to be incapable of making moral decisions, otherwise I submit he would have been unable to carry out his operations. Gary should admit that he has done wrong, that he was responsible for his actions, and is willing to face the music. In the joined up world of the Internet it is also hard for the technophile to argue that a crime should not now be tried in the juristiction where the damage was done. I do agree however that the sentence is likely to be far too harsh in the USA - the two murderers who robbed and tortured to death those French students will apparently be punished much less than Gary could be.
fg
@ Andrew - Gary has already done as you suggest, in public, on television, on radio, at press conferences, at computer security conferences, writing to the Director of Public Prosecutions etc.
He has even offered to plead guilty to UK Computer Misuse Act 1990 section 1 unauthorised access offences, but he denies the extent of the alleged financial damage he is accused of in the USA.
He has never asked anyone to emulate him, and has always told the kids and wannabes "don't do it !"
The Judicial Review this month was all about the failure of the Director of Public Prosecutions to prosecute him in the United Kingdom, something which would have seen justice being served, but in a more proportionate and humane way than extraditing him to the USA.
Even without the late diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome, the moral case for British sovereignty and equality in extradition arrangements with the USA (including the cross examination of prima facie evidence in a UK court, which is what used to happen under the Extradition Act 1989 which was in force when Gary was arrested in 2002), is very strong, and is supported by all the political parties in Parliament , except for the Labour party.
Darren replied to comment from Nefertiti
With regards to your comments Nefertiti.
No i am not a lawyer and no do not understand the justice system but i am entitled to my opinion.
How can it be alleged that a serious crime has been committed when Gary has already admitted his guilt by stating he was looking for UFO's ?
It might a horrendous prison system as you put it but prison is supposed to be a horrendous experience not a holiday camp and yes 60 years is different from 5 years but thats life in a country where they know how to punish a crime and not get all entangled up with issues about human rights for people.
But saying that i wish no harm to come to Gary and i do think a trial should be held in this country if for no other reason i think there are worse crimes being committed and maybe the Americans should thank their lucky stars it was him that hacked in and not one of Bin Ladens Group.
So for that reason i have signed the petition for a trial in this country.
Criminal goberment
There are some really bad jokes going on.
Sure if criminals like Gordon brown, Tony Blair aren't in jail yet.
Gary is NOT a Terrorist. 1) Still they are handling Gary as a "Terrorist", this to make him send over to the U.S.
The real terrorists are in the G0VERNMENT.
2) Shutting down human rights = what criminals do.
Don't allow Gary to send to the U.S. Its an absurd joke made by criminals!
Anth
Since there was so many people connected to these
machines, how can they reason that Gary did the damage to the machines when there was so many hackers connected?
Andrew replied to comment from fg
There are no obvious reasons why Gary should be legally treated differently others
who have faced similar charges; i.e. tried in the UK.
However there are deeper influences of even historical and philosophical importance
which have in reality to be considered.
Through the web Gary invaded and embarassed the most powerful sovereign state on earth and may have caused actual economic damage too.
Through avoiding extradition one could argue he continues to embarrass and cause
loss of face to that state. He implies that they are incapable of just treatment,
proportionate punishment or humanitarian clemency: he denies them opportunities
of closure and reconciliation as well as of retribution.
Gary and/or his supporters expect the UK government to be complicit with him in this
evasion but I do not believe that to be possible. America is the UK's and the free world's greatest ally whatever its faults. We are free to criticise it, and its people are free to elect its leaders. Compare it with China, Iran, Burma, Cuba etc. when criticising its administration.
However fearful Gary may be, I believe he should stop opposing extradition, plead
guilty in an American courtroom and ask for forgiveness and mercy. We will then see what
America is made of, and I hope and believe we will not have misplaced our trust.
June
Oh Andrew, so little you know as you dribble on about forgiveness and mercy. Gary's supporters will not let Gary have the chance to stand before the almighty USA Gods and let them decide his fate. My god what kind of world are you living in. A One sided treaty should never have been agreed - Read Up on that!!!! Free Gary
Marcus Pinto
i think the US should be commended for not seeking the death penalty in this case.
Andrew replied to comment from June
Well I do not live in a world where the USA is an Empire of Evil, having lived and worked there myself and with friends and relatives living there. It is far too easy to be swept up into David and Goliath mythology and always to root for the weakest party. Gary committed criminal acts and made threats:- 'I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels.' to quote his own words. If I did not believe he would receive justice in the USA I would sign the petition.
Elle Hart, Elec.Eng.Tech.
hAckers perSpective
"Security through obscurity (sometimes called security by obscurity) is a principle in security engineering, which attempts to use secrecy (of design, implementation, etc.) to provide security. A system relying on security through obscurity may have theoretical or actual security vulnerabilities, but its owners or designers believe that the flaws are not known, and that attackers are unlikely to find them."
http://www.securityvibes.com/obscure-reasons-for-security-posture-benchai7-news-3003321.html
Not really sure if this was the method employed by the .mil networks - but it seems to be the only one that can explain the comcept. Concept being - DEFAULT ADMINISTRATOR ACCOUNT. Possibly thought that noone was likely to discover it?
FYI Andrew & Darren - This is not hacking - this is stupidity::
Elle
david
Andrew scrawled: "However fearful Gary may be, I believe he should stop opposing extradition, plead guilty in an American courtroom and ask for forgiveness and mercy. We will then see what
America is made of, and I hope and believe we will not have misplaced our trust."
- You've been sleep-walking my friend if you really believe any of that.
- Where do people like you get off on wanting to see an individual who harmed no-one and damaged nothing face what will amount to a fixed, military type trial with a 60 year outcome?
- Do you not see this has little to do with Gary McKinnon but everything to do with their humiliation at shit security measures and more to the point it continues the policy of assuming they have the right to hide information on new energy systems and visiting intelligences.
- I'd say put yourself in Gary's position and see if that changed your mind but then of course you'd never be where he is because you're probably the sort who assumes everything is safe in government and corporate hands - thus you do nothing.
Andrew
So lax security exonerates the crime does it? If I go out and leave my door unlocked the burglar is in no way wrong for stealing my belongings? Bernard Madoff is innocent because people were stupid enough to trust him?
If you go onto the internet looking for weaknesses to exploit and find them, the only correct thing to do is to inform the party concerned and suggest a remedy and NOT after having a look round first. Or you could just ensure your own part of the web is as secure as possible and use your expertise to advance your own career. You might even choose a career where you can do something about government ineptitude with IT.
Greg replied to comment from fg
Yeah, when I knocked over that bank in Texas and was caught, I told the authorities I would be willing to stand trial in Ohio. But that's it in terms of compromise!
A criminal does not lay down the rules of their own trial and incarceration.
Greg replied to comment from Nefertiti
That's just a full blown lie. Garry has ADMITTED his crimes on multiple occasions.
Andrew replied to comment from david
Just to be clear, no I would not like to be in Gary's shoes. I would not 'get off' on seeing him imprisoned for decades. Least of all do I believe in the competence of governments with IT. The UK government has a pathetic record of simply losing confidential data e.g. Child Benefit and military personnel records and yet they still want to set up more database plums for crooks to hack ( or just login to with a default password ). With a fair amount of intent I believe, Gary made himself part of a political/historical process which he will have to see through. If he does not receive proportionate justice in the USA then we would be heading into dark times indeed. As for ETs, it's hard to believe they could travel across light years of space then blunder into secret service quagmires that hide their tracks. At least it's hard to believe they'd do it more than once. The fact is NASA (for example) could not, at the time, even protect their data from Gary et al, so what chance could they have against vastly more advanced intelligences? If ETs have visited earth then mankind en mass doesn't know it because they'd rather we didn't.
Elle Hart, Elec.Eng.Tech.
Andrew - So what you are saying is that if an automobile manufacturer produced a vehicle that had a serious flaw, say the keyless entry allows entry if you press 3 keys simultaneously. Regardless of this - a teenage joy rider who took your car for a spin should be exclusively responsible for the event and no liability should be placed on the automobile manufacturer?
Microsoft is a huge and very wealthy corporation. The Windows plateform is found everywhere on the planet. Almost everyone uses their operating system on their personal or corporate and government computers.
Microsoft security issues have been common knowledge for decades now and the company has been very slow to respond and remedy the situation. Billions of computers globally are victims of unsecure data and exposure of private information at the hands of Microsoft.
Yet Microsoft takes no responsibility for the situation. Microsoft does not take ownership of the billions of people and businesses and military that have been accessed through their faulty software.
And Microsoft continues to produce software that is a security threat to everyone who uses it on their systems. But I do not hear anyone making a complaint about this, or asking for their money back or filing a civil litigation motion. Why?
The Insurance Industry calles it liability. And the owness of a crime if car theft changes if you left your keys in the car. Under circumstances as this the ownership of the crime is shared by both parties. Where is Microsoft in the Gary McKinnon case?
Gary will definitly NOT recieve a fair unbiased trial in USA. I can see that they would like to 'make an example of him' to cover up their embarassment.
Gary will not recieve a fair trial in the UK either. All beurocrates work together. But at least he will be in his homeland with his friends and family.
Have some compassion ------------
Elle
Andrew
Ellie, I am distiguishing between imperfect products and services created and used by
fallible human beings, and the concept of justice. In law, which is the product of
centuries of consideration and refinement, justice revolves around two major
ideas: Intent and Moral Responsibility. The relative strengths or balance of power
between the parties are irrelevant, as is the vulnerability of the victim. You
can take candy from a baby but should you?
You will notice that Gary's legal team are latched onto these ideas because he is called to account. His intent is mooted to have been
the search for UFOs - innocent and wacky. His responsibility
is diminished by his life-long Aspergers which grafts with the UFO obsession.
Now all these mitigating factors could be assumed to be true - but you would expect
those who were wronged be able to assess them in court in their own fashion.
As you have a level of technical expertise you will no doubt
know that a Universal Computing Machine, as nearly all PCs and Servers are, if
attached to a public network is impossible to secure absolutely. It has inputs
and outputs that by design are able to be spoofed. If the keyboard, mouse, storage
and output etc. were all hardwired into the architecture... we'd have no PCs, Internet, Cellphones at all. Computers would be very secure and powerful and only in the hands of corporations
and governments.
You probably also know that users are their own worst enemy when it comes to security. A little bit of inconvenience and they'd rather 'take the risk'. If their card details are stolen, well the banks will bail them out so who cares?
They'll put all their personal data on Facebook to enhance their social lives and blame someone else
if their identities are abused. Who do they blame most? The criminal whose intention was to steal or abuse in the full knowledge that it was wrong - at root, that they'd hate the same thing to happen to them. Same as other vendors, Microsoft have to tread the thin line between usability, security and convenience; yes they could do better but they are not the only choice out there. On the other hand are open systems whose source code is available going to be more or less easy to hack than proprietary ones?
Elle Hart, Elec.Eng.Tech.
Unfortunately that is not how law works. The theory of law and the practice of law is imperfect. IT itself is tainted and twisted into a realm of injustice. Justice on this planet is corrupt.
Justice is related to intent and morals in that it is the owness of the victim to prove their innocense and moral intentions. After all - if you wanted secue systems on your millitary machines - why did you make no effort to secure them?
In USA it is doable to murder your wife and her lover and get away with it so long as you have the money to pay off the legal team. (and anyone else) As we see in the O.J.Simpson case.
Everyone has their story and defense for what takes place. Basic human nature it to deny and embelish the truth. Everyone does it - and when you grow up you learn how to take responsibility instead.
Unfortunately not everyone grows up.
The entire USA and the sum total of capitallism or democracy has evolved into the 'business of unethics'. Profit is placed far far above the issues of such as poverty and polution. Where are the morals?
And it is often more important what is not revealed then what has been revealed. In my mind, the exclusion of information is the same as a lie - maybe worse. To delibrately refrain from stating the truth - holding it secret - can be far more damaging.
That is what motivated Gary McKinnon in the first place. Seeking out the truth that has been concealed from us by our government. Who themeselves have become corrupt same as the justice system and capitalism.
PC security is a state than can be achieved if the Administrators follow the directions outlined. The .mil Administrators did not. And yes there are many other oerating systems out there other than Windows that are way more secure. It is the choices that we make - of our own free will - that make or break security.
The information age has many struggles ahead. Information can both free us or enslave us. The potential for the human race to finally put an end to the unethical behavior of some is now possible. Or, we can let the same old powers that have suppressed, enslaved and created wars to continue to new heights. But so long as we do not open the government doors and seek full disclosure we are doomed.
Elle
Matt T replied to comment from andy
And he deserves 60 YEARS in prison despite not raping, murdering or torturing anyone?
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2009/07/22/237005/hacking-dossier-exposes-us-military-embarrassment.htm
Sorry but here it is, Gary was not the only one snooping around, there is no evidence that the 'damage' is directly linked to Gary, he just admitted he was snooping around, which in itself as part of computer misuse is able to be carried out in a UK court.
There is no forensic or visual evidence of damage to any computer. To believe this guy is a mastermind who wanted to bring down America is putting all your faith in mere hearsay. Not a very intelligent way to form an opinion is it?
Regarding Aspergers Syndrome as a mitigating circumstance, moving to America would be very harmful to this guy. Us aspies find it very difficult to adapt to change. I truly believe Gary will attempt suicide if the extradition took place. Gary admitted to snooping around nothing more nothing less. Try him in the UK and until the USA provide ANY form of evidence they should go and fuck themselves.
Matt T
So America where is the evidence of all this 'damage'? hmmm? Any photos of these damaged computers or forensic evidence? Did they spontaneously combust or something?
You dont need any because there isnt any. Now that is logical captain. To anyone here, ie Andy who puts all their faith in hearsay to form all their opinions rather than requiring the raw facts must have very little grey matter between the ears indeed.
Matt T
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2009/07/22/237005/hacking-dossier-exposes-us-military-embarrassment.htm
incase you havent read, SECURE COMPUTERS MY ARSE!
Steve D
Let me put it in simple english for everyone to read and understand.
1) A serious crime has been committed to which Gary has already admitted too. Regardless of his reasons "Looking for UFO Info" does not matter.
If i break into someone's house but i was only wanting to look at the decor do you think the police would let me off, i think not.
2) I keep reading a change to his rountine is bordering on dangerous to his mental state and his supporters believe he will not get a fair trial in America. NEWSFLASH he has already admitted his guilt and seeing as all the evidence and witnesses are in America does it not stand to reason the trial should be there.
Before all the supporters of Gary come back with a load of stinging comments just cause i am not dancing to your tune, just remember there is no such thing as a victimless crime and his condition clearly did not stop him committing the crime so his condition should not stop him from serving time.
At the end of the day with all the terror threats and people trying rip your details from the internet this does go down as a serious crime committed.
I would like to ask given his condition etc what sort of sentence would his supporters be happy with ?
Matt T
http://www.computerweekly.com/DowntimePDF/pdf/mckinnon.pdf
'the task of gathering sufficient evidence to initiate proceedings in the UK would have been immense'
Immense enough to prevent someone from committing suicide I wonder?
So immense that actually there is no evidence at all and they wont admit it?
'I do not go on to consider public interest'
Beggars belief.
Han replied to comment from Matt T
You are starting to foam a little at the mouth there Matt. I am not aware of anyone in the U.S. government who has ever said that he deserves 60 YEARS in prison, nor is there any likelihood that he would get a sentence anywhere close to that. A rational assumption is 3-5 years at the most. Probably 18-24 months in the U.S. (depending on his actions) and the remainder in the U.K. (minus good time credits -- I think you only serve about 1/2 of your U.K. sentence), assuming that he is actually found guilty.
As to the evidence, the article you cite references information in the possession of the U.K. CPS. Because *they* do not have sufficient evidence, they are unwilling to prosecute. Why don't they have the evidence? Because it is all in the U.S., where the crime was committed, which is why he should be tried in the U.S. There is no chance that he will ever be prosecuted in the U.K. as you and the rest of his 'supporters' well know. That is why your cries for him to be tried in the U.K. are such a huge joke.
As to damages, if you bothered to read the Virginia Indictment, you would see that Count 1 does not require any damages, and thus McKinnon can be extradited to the U.S. without a showing of any damages. Of course, his claims that he caused no damages are contradicted by his admissions that he deleted log files and other files in order to avoid detection and installed Remotely Anywhere, which is essentially a trojan. Both constitute damage. Damage does not have to be physical, come join us here in the 21st Century.
Suicide? If he does, I suspect it will be more a function of all of his 'friends' here goading him for the last seven years into thinking that he is going to Gitmo, the electric chair, a supermax for 70 years, or some other ridiculous rubbish. Why don't you try helping him a bit instead of feeding his fears?
Han
Matt T
Foam at the mouth for bloody good reason. I am absolutely livid at the way this is being dealt with. How do you know for sure thats what he will get? how do they know the USA have evidence, just because they told them so? Also, why do you think code one is what it is? Going beyond what they have simply told us, it is naive to think half of it is true.
He admitted to misusing computers in the UK, that should be enough for a fine and community service.
Suicide? If he does it will be a result of people with Aspergers syndrome finding it nearly impossible to adapt to change.
It is the principle of not requiring any evidence,
June
Matt
Well said!
Andrew,
The US are threatening Gary with 5 years per count, that amounts to 60 years in total and they also are trying to charge him under the Terrorist Act No 1! do you really beleive they will give him a slap on the wrist and send him back to serve 2 years after the embarassment he has caused them - which planet are you living on, surely the largest authority on the planet would have better security. Also how dare you say that his friends and supporters are driving him to suicide, this just shows how your mind works, these people care for Gary and support his cause, your pathetic attitude to human life and Aspergers Syndrome is really quite frightening. Please take the time to research Garys case thoroughly before you form an opinion like yours. Its always best to get your facts right and yours are sooooo wrong! And if the US are so sure that Gary caused all this damage, then lets see the evidence!! I like that fact that you don't appear to mention that in Gary's first interview he mentioned that there were other hackers in there too at the same time (oh how Convenient that they get Gary and blame him for all the damage, again prove it) and also that when interviewed there was no Lawyer present at first, so they bullied Gary to agree to the charges to receive a lighter sentence! Again do your research!!! And for the recoord, it was Ed Gibson (former FBI) who advised us that the US wanted Gary over there and to "see him fry" was his words, why don't you research that!
June
That comment was not meant for Andrew but Han, who always shows up when Gary received positive press, your so predictable, where's Eyes for Lies he normally comes out around this time too? Actually that comment can go to Andrew as well, as he appears also to lack compassion and facts!
fg
@ June - please do not encourage those internet trolls, who are vastly outnumbered by the many people from the USA and the rest of the world, who have expressed sympathy for Gary's situation.
June
Apologies FG
Matt T
Thing is with Gary’s Asperger’s it appears he is heavily affected by the condition. There are plenty of people claiming to have it saying he should know right from wrong. Of course he knows right from wrong but on a different scale. Gary obviously looks at the world sideways; his brain is wired to be like that. All that time being different and not knowing why has generated an obsessive compulsive habit and this is the result.
I have Asperger’s and I was almost suicidal after losing my driving license for medical reasons (forgive me for pouring my heart out here, but this is a cause I am starting to get quite passionate, and angry about). Due to weak central coherence my brain could not emotionally or abstractly comprehend the outcome of having to change my life, which scared me beyond belief, and that is just something trivial. BTW WCC is the limited ability to understand context or to "see the big picture", and it underlies the central disturbance in autism and related autism spectrum disorders, which in itself is characterised by impaired social interaction and communication, as well as repetitive behaviours and restricted interests.
You have to have/experience it to fully appreciate what it feels like, to intellectually know something but you know something in your brain will not allow. I am emotionally and socially immature despite having above average intellectual ability. Emotional intelligence and academic are totally different and use completely different parts of the brain. Difference is the former is in control of everything. Just because Gary is 'clever enough' to be a script kiddie doesnt mean he is 'clever enough' to comprehend, picture in his mind, and imagine himself in front of the monitor of the computer he was snooping around on, not to mention being able to predict an outcome (something people with aspergers are very bad it), and trying to do such a thing causes a huge amount of anxiety. This mixed with his passion for UFO's, free energy and trying to find out the truth for what he believed would be for the greater good of mankind had an inevitable outcome.
It is the 21st century and I think that Gary could not imagine what he was doing. Vandalism in the old school sense is physically doing it. Trying to imagine how the people on the other side of the pond were reacting is virtually impossible.
I am not making excuses but the guy wont even last 60 days in an American prison let alone 60 years. At least in a UK prison he will still see his family.
Now from a logical point of view in terms of exactly what he did as well as common sense, mitigating circumstances and the psychological punishment he has already obtained, I think a long spell of community service, a reasonable fine or possibly a reasonable custodial sentence, not to mention the fact that this guy needs therapy and needs to see a psychologist. That is no disrespect towards him, he has spent so long being different and being ignored by society that he withdrew into his own world. Trying to directly find out about free energy using the only way he knew how was the only outlet he had.
I wish these trolls would show a bit of humanity (which requires the use of the brain and the heart combined, are they capable?) and see this case is being handled completely wrong.
Elle Hart, Elec.Eng.Tech.
My strategy is to simply ignore the comments from Eyes for Lies and Han ETAL. Obviously, by observation, these characters are either US spin doctors. They always try to incite an arguement on some vaguely related topic to switch attention away from valid points. Either that or they were on the original botched US security team and have some anger issues.
Gary McKinnon has opened the eyes of many, And in this new age - The Information Age - he has raised the most critical question.
What is the truth?
And for that - he is a hero to us all. All who have asked that same question at some time in our life. And to all of us who never have dared ask that question.
We have the technology for self government on this planet now. We have the opportunity to take charge of the truth and build a better world - one free from greed. But if we let it slip away by allowing the lies to continue to have control, you can expect a grim future.
Open government !!!
Elle
PS - We love and support you Gary...
Eyes4Lies replied to comment from June
Well it looks like I have been remiss on my duties around here. So many comments referencing me.
I have been watching and reading. Always amazed how any attempt to provide a rational opinion on this website is immediately attacked, censored, discredited without facts because the arrogance of ignorant people never ends.
I eagerly await the judges decision. I suspect that the decision will not be in Gary's favor, but there is always a chance.
As for the evidence that you all believe does not exist...I know for a fact that it does exist...it is very extensive...it has been thoroughly examined by the best.
Gary is afraid of facing the evidence as it will prove his intent was malicious. You can blame all the system administrators you want for their lack of security, but their is only one person to blame for stealing and deleting files with the intent of disabling the computers he accessed...Tick Tock...Tick Tock.
Han
@ June - Keep making up facts, I'm sure others will buy into them. The U.S. is not threatening, they have charged him with 6 counts, each of which could result in a sentence between 0 and 10 years. Although it is unlikely, some or all of the sentences could run consecutively. Noone is attempting to charge him under the Terrorist Act, whatever that is, nor could they (rule of specificity).
I believe that an Article III Judge, who is appointed for life and is independant of the entire Executive Branch of the U.S. Government, will decide the appropriate sentence and that it is unlikely that it will be more than the bottom of the Guideline range if McKinnon pleads guilty. In addition, if you had bothered to do your homework, you would know that the prosecution has already agreed not to oppose repatriation regardless of whether McKinnon is extradited or voluntarily surrenders, and if he goes to trial or pleads guilty.
Yes, his friends, family, and other supporters support his *cause*, but apparently not him. How many people have said that the U.S. should have hired McKinnon rather than prosecuting him? And yet, not one of his supposed friends or supporters have seen fit to help him get a job in seven years?
I think it is horrible that he has spent the last seven years with the threat of prosecution and incarceration in a foreign country hanging over him, lost his girlfriend, has no job, and is surrounded by people who have been pouring petrol on the flames of his uncertainty. But the simple fact is that he and he alone is responsible for being in this situation and other than the inevitable failure of his final frivolous appeal, he is the only one who can end the misery. I would not wish such a situation on anyone, but it is one of his own making.
Defendants do not get to choose the charges, punishment, and venue -- I hope that it is obvious why. As to the evidence, you'll have an opportunity to see it if he decides to go to trial after arriving in the U.S. I suspect he will get to see it once there and decide based on that whether or not he wants to go to trial. If you bothered to read the attachments in the article Matt posted you would already know how the U.S. intends to show that is was McKinnon who caused the damage.
The first interview (without a lawyer) was with the NHTCU (I think that is the right acronym) and not with the U.S. No deals were made or attempted at that meeting. McKinnon had legal representation at all meetings with the U.S. Sorry to expose your made-up facts . . . oh wait, I'm not.
@ Matt: Thank you for the explanation concerning Aspergers Syndrome. I appreciate that it is a difficult and very personal subject, so again, thank you. Ever since the diagnosis I have been doing sporadic research on Aspergers, but nothing beats a good, concise first-hand account.
I am simply not convinced that McKinnon actually has Aspergers Syndrome, or if he does that his condition is such that he should not be extradited. I find it all a little bit too much of a coincidence that he loses his last appeal, the order for extradition is signed, and suddenly, out of the blue, he is diagnosed with a condition that can now be the basis for new appeals. Especially as, by his own statements, he does not seem to exhibit symptoms that you, others with the condition, and doctors claim are integral to Aspergers.
Perhaps I am just far too cynical. Perhaps if I had first-hand or direct knowledge about Aspergers I would feel differently. Either way, I believe that the Bureau of Prisons is more than capable of dealing with far more serious conditions and thus would not have a problem treating McKinnon.
@Elle - The truth? You claim to seek it and yet you bury your head in the sand and then complain when the truth smacks you in the bum.
Han
Matt T
You can read Gary's mind can you? You know for a fact the evidence exists? AT LAST! you have let the cat out of the bag, you have ties with the US government, probably on a huge salary and have been ordered to make negative comments here. It doesnt take einstein to make the obvious connection here.
Everybody take my advice and ignore anything Eyes4Lies because that individual is biased.
Matt T replied to comment from Eyes4Lies
So being totally ignorant about aspergers syndrome is rational? Speak to the hand!
Matt T
Not convinced he has aspergers syndrome? So you are a doctor are you? the opinion of autism expert Simon Baron-Cohen means nothing? Oh give me break.
It is not a coincidence. I have lived nearly 30 years without a diagnosis with it only being this year I was diagnosed by a professional. Gary has lived such a reclused life that it was only when he was seen inh the public eye that it caught the eye of the professionals. My diagnosis was only flagged due to an incident in my life, otherwise I would have struggled on with my life not knowing at all.
'I find it all a little bit too much of a coincidence that he loses his last appeal, the order for extradition is signed, and suddenly, out of the blue, he is diagnosed with a condition that can now be the basis for new appeals. Especially as, by his own statements, he does not seem to exhibit symptoms that you, others with the condition, and doctors claim are integral to Aspergers.'
-> sorry but that is a statement generated from ignorance, and yes it is you being cynical. It is attitudes like that which make it so difficult for us to integrate into society. It is not a coincidence, ever heard of the phrase one thing leads to another? Sorry but with my insight the symptoms which I describe are classic of Gary's behaviour. Stop trying to become an expert all of a sudden just because you know it is against your internet-troll-like attempt to spread negative vibes about this poor chap. Sorry but the prison will not have a clue about how to deal with it. I mean how do you deal with someone who has slit his wrists and is on the floor in a pool of blood? Maybe they will take a photograph of Gary's dead carcass and publish it in the newspapers to show the UK/US governments what they have done.
Now think about that when you continue to wet dream over sending Gary to the wolves. Having said that I find it too much of a coincidence that Someone was hit by a car the other day, I mean what are chances of them being in the middle of the road at EXACTLY the same time as that car approaching them? Makes one wonder doesnt it?
James
Aspergers was barely recognised and rarely diagnosed until the late 1990's and most adults with Aspergers have fallen through the net and many remain undiagnosed until this day, which could have happened in Gary's case had he not been exposed to the intense glare of publicity.
Folks that don't have a clue about Aspergers should stoptrying topretend they know more than the worlds medical experts.
People with Aspergers are intelligent but have difficulty understanding many social rules and there's the crux.
Look it up and read about it before mouthing off with ignorant comments.
Josie
The real point Hans is that theis one sided extradition treaty should be quashed and you don't like that, as you're happy with Brits being treated as underdogs and you want the treaty at any cost.
As we have to provide an evidential test which can be contested in America by any American we wish to extradite, then the U.S should also have to provide an evidential test that can be contested in the U.K by a British citizen before extradition to the U.S can take place.
Gary McKinnon has always denied the alleged damage and if the U.S thought they had proof they should have applied for extradition in 2002 when they indicted him and issued a U.S arrest warrant.
However the U.S decided to wait until June 2005 before re-arresting Gary McKinnon and applying for extradition because by then the one sided treaty was being used in British courts and America no longer had to provide evidence of the damage Gary has always denied.
As the U.S waited for more than three years so that they could gain a legal advantage then our courts should have told the U.S government to piss off.
Equal Rights for U.K citizens. Had enough of your American Colonialism.
William
The U.S had no passwords and no firewalls on thousands of machines. Gary left cyber notes all over the place saying "your security is crap".
No one noticed for about a year!
This is the World's super power!!! and they're trying to claim that a guy with an incredibly slow dial up connection and an ancient computer could walk into their systems and bring the might of the U.S military to its knees seven years ago. It's so funny and so ridiculous or are they really that crap?
Prosecute those responsible for U.S security now!
So what if Gary hadn't walked in? Would they rather a real Terrorist had walked in?
Is their idea to prosecute our own little kiddie script Western hackers and leave all the real sophisticated hackers from unfriendly countries to wander around their systems and to really bring them to their knees.
Fools!
Drop it or look even more foolish in the eyes of the world. You are making huge fools of yourselves but the good thing is....you're destroying the one sided extradition Treaty by the relentless pursuit of this man.
Goodbye extradition treaty and government and any future government that doesn't rip it up and start again.
Sandra replied to comment from andy
Nonsense he is a child
Sandra D replied to comment from Stan
The reason the Americans are so eager to have this innocent guy "safely" in one of their prisons is so they can have him silenced. If he has hacked so many sensitive US computers he may may well have evidence in his innocent mind that the towers were indeed blown up by a US government agency.
Sandra D replied to comment from Amy
The reason the Americans are so eager to have this innocent guy "safely" in one of their prisons is so they can have him silenced. If he has hacked so many sensitive US computers he may may well have evidence in his innocent mind that the twin towers were indeed blown up by a US government agency. All because of oil too.
fg
@ Sandra D - Gary is not innocent, but that does not mean that he should be extradited to the USA. He should face a fair trial here in the United Kingdom, under English law.
diba
Freeeeee Garyyyyy ... ele NÃO é culpado. Acho que os Americanos que sao fracos no sentido de conhecimento sobre segurança em tecnologia ... se dao brecha ... vao entrar. Acho que o sonho de todos realmente é mostrar a verdade ao mundo. Ets, tecnologia alienigena etc ...Se nao querea a verdade... Se cuidem.
free Gary ...
Francine replied to comment from diba
concordo com você diiiiiiiiibaaa >( freee gary! tanta coisa para se preocupar e dão conta de algo tão fútil e pequeno! eles vivem escondendo essas coisa do povo! para mim eles são tudo subornados pelos extraterrestres!!! >(
Wendy Bartlett...Mother of Aspergers Syndrome sufferer
Jeff! Describes him as a 'wanker' and describes his condition as 'less severe than autism'.
JEFF it seems, has very little knowledge. Autism is a spectrum. Aspergers is at the top end of this spectrum. Bottom end is described as, and I quote, 'lights on but nobody is home' (I do not mean to offend anyone), other end of the spectrum is Massively intelligent (Aspergers) Huge IQ, very clever people, but all Autistic have a common factor...LEARNING DIFFICULTY. What the Americans should be doing is employing this man!!!
JEFF!!! At the near top of the comments is obviously an uneducated WANKER and should refrain from making such an ass of himself.
Mother of Aspergers Syndrome sufferer replied to comment from Jeff
You describe him as a 'wanker' and describe his condition as 'less severe than autism'.
It seems, you have very little knowledge about Autism. Autism is a spectrum. Aspergers is at the top end of this spectrum. Bottom end is described as, and I quote, 'lights on but nobody is home' (I do not mean to offend anyone), other end of the spectrum is massively intelligent (Aspergers) Huge IQ, very clever people, but all Autistic have a common factor...LEARNING DIFFICULTY (They have difficulty knowing the difference between what is right and what is wrong to do.) What the Americans should be doing is employing this man!!!
What i suggest is that you spend more time searching the web to educate yourself on this condition before you call this man a wanker. You have no knowledge and are making yourself out to be a WANKER.
David rs greer Aspergers 34
(ASDs) are olny socil disorders!! that the normel person dosen't understand Not interlectial disorders.so theres no Paranoia or a disturbed thought process characterized by excessive anzity or the tone the person who has like speeks can some times get peopel on the autism spectrim in trobble .Or studie Tabo subjects. To study keeps peopel with Autism carm its a stress relief .I know I have Aspergers and love it!and wonder why I have an intrest in Ufo
Thats not normel..
like talking to gost or ESP for others but peopel are still talking to god and classed as normel? .
Doctors are sales peopel for chemest all it takein is one dr view point and thats it the person with ASD is stuck on meds for life. The doctor will prescribe the lowest dose.and just one last goverment cover up MMR vaccine are woefully there to get smarter peopel in the wourld ... the complex networks of immature and memory immune cells learn to hold memory .The main resion for the MMR was Memorys And peopels IQ's This one has back fired on the goverment!.
My Aspergers IQ is 184 .I was veary low in sink at the age of 7 diden't walk and talk till round 8 There is an entire movement of autistics who say that they don't need a 'cure;' this is they way they are wired best wishes to Gary From David rs Greer 34 With Aspie.
Alan
The people who design defence systems that leave us vunerable should be the ones on trial. Gary was a harmless man with a disability but what if he had been a terrorist. As usual the people responsible for the system get off scott free and try to blame someone else.I wonder if they will be giving their salaries back
Shari
Thank you for your simple but clear explanation of the specturm. Most of the ignorance shown here is a choosing not to research or understand. Rather, they are spouting off to "hear" themselves talk. It is disheartening but unfortunately a symptom of what is happening in our larger society of unmasked hatred for anyone who is different, has less money or a member of a minority. We actually have a wonderful President now who does have a heart for people who suffer and values diversity. Unfortunately, it seems like it's going to take a very long time for that to catch on to the people who need to "get it". There are none so blind as those who will not see.
I am also from the US and hope that Gary can be tried in the UK but probably for some different reasons than most expressed here. Change is terribly difficult for Aspies and in order for him to be able to appropriately participate in his own defense he needs to be where there is as much familiarity as possible. He is very bright but that does not mean that he can navigate the social, cultural and political changes he would need to learn very quickly if he were to stand trial in the US. It would be easier for a carpenter to set a broken leg, or a plumber to install a stint in a human brain than for an Aspie to navigate a foreign culture - Aspies struggle with the cultures they are raised in and stumble clumsily at times when it is familiar; to impose such dramatic change as would happen from the UK to the US would signal the end of justice for Gary.
I am rather fascinated by the suggestion that the Pentagon should hire him. Not a bad suggestion! Not a bad suggestion at all.
Thoughtfully,
Shari
rudy raymakers
this is not only about Gary being extradicted or not. It is also about the world's once greatest democracy now kissing the ass of the world's biggest tiran.
And i am deeply touched by the efforts of these musicians with this absolutely great cover song.
David With Hi function Aspergers.I love Ufos
heigh levels of understanding subjects. Yes thats me I am the David Greer With Aspergers Autism fist don't go to WA/dMlhC/FSDU it can corse spam on your computer.
2nd Watch The skys in grece in 2012
For the space ship .The first war with REAL ALIENS this is going to be world collaboration>.The Cosmic Law is not written with this so I am going to wright one up first also be making the Internet radio program to youse this as a wireless internet law too.Do you peopel understand what is taking place.We need to move forward and do you think there is something missing in the equation when peopel say we will never run out of fossil fuels. and there is no such thing as UFO's I have seen a Silver Disk /it had energies out side our own gravity to move around like It did !I dont desire to see a ET little green men no thank you phenomena. First off,
the brain’s wave frequencies range from 5 to 30 Hz. At the lower end
of that range (5-11 Hz) are "extremely low frequency" waves, or
ELF’s. ELF waves can penetrate solid objects, even go through the
globe. So, in the old relativistic model, we see a basis for
telepathy at simple light speeds. Imagine those 10 billion nerve
cells in your brain, then multiply them by the 10,000-20,000
dendrites connected to each nerve cell, or better yet, by the atomic
curvature of the hundreds of trillions of atoms in a brain, and you peopel with aspergers like my self can hear 14.2 mhz this is hyposentive.
see that, working together with Magenta site , the brain can send out and contour,
recontour quite a lot of lightwaves too.
I think you gies need to catch up with this..By sorting it out into entire categories of phenomena
(i.e. as physicists do)I David rs Greer Everything that you have learnt will have a bearing on your future
choices. The goverment feduration law too .Thay seid I was to smart to Here in newzealand.. some of you seem bright too good website.