Free Gary McKinnon

I have emailed the Obama website and i suggest that everybody and your friends (family - well anyone you know) does the same. The bottom line falls on whether they will continue to bully or will they see reason and stop this one-sided treaty and stop dragging people away from their family and friends. If millions of people can have hope in America and around the world now, then maybe Gary has a chance if we come together and act. Please email, it looks like England simply doesn't care about our rights and they just want Gary to vanish. I'm so glad my grandad isn't alive to witness the state of this country (what the hell did they fight for?) I have never been so ashamed of this country and it's so called government! Please email both Obama and your MP we have to keep fighting!xxx

I have e-mailed my MP numerous times about this issue and he has always appeared to be "on message". Unfortunately he doesn't appear to have signed the early day motion yet, but he always responds in writing so no doubt he will fill me in with his (usually reasonable views) btw my MP is Dominic Grieve the shadow attorney general. As to Obama, I think contacting him is a great idea as I have said previously - I just hope he's aroung long enough to make a difference. I'm sure there won't be any trips to Dallas in open topped cars any time soon.

does it actually state anywhere on the change gov. site that the transition government will address the one sided extradition agreement, i would like to write to them but can't find the bit which says they are aware of this iniquity - it would be nice to know they think it's wrong too.

The British rule of law is to be
"Fair and reasonable" and to
"Let right be done"

I hope that the USA is now going to change it's policies and have the respect towards teh rule of law; especially the international one.

Thank you for your consideration (any comments welcome)

Hello Jim,

The one sided extradition treaty with America that the U.K government had David Blunket sign in secret, is not fair and not reasonable.
It is in fact totally unfair to U.K citizens and is completely unreasonable.
We were told it was to be used only for Terrorists but so far it has been used mainly to extradite white collar workers for non violent crimes.

Why did the U.K government sign away the rights of U.K citizens for no apparent reason, other than to appease America.
The signing of this extradition treaty removed the rights of U.K citizens to have prima facie evidence presented when an extradition request came in from America.

The signing of this treaty gave American citizens greater rights, as we have to provide proof/actual "evidence" before we can obtain the extradition of a U.S citizen to the U.K.

Of course America will take full advantage if we have a government that was stupid enough to strip away hard won rights of U.K citizens.
This was a gross betrayal of our rights and our government are traitors of their own people.

Gary McKinnon has always denied the alleged damage. This damage is required in order for this case to be tried in a federal court.

The fact that the U.S waited until this treaty came into use (thus giving them a legal advantage) before arresting Gary McKinnon in 2005 for a crime commited in 2002 shows that they waited until they did not have to show actual evidence of damage.

The U.K government has betrayed its citizens and the U.S are obviously taking advantage of their stupidity.
This treaty should be abolished now and any extradition should be applied or re-applied for under the previous extradition treaty.

How many U.S citizens have we extradited? Very, Very few. No computer hacker has ever been extradited, nor should they be.

Extradition was intended to be used to bring back people that had fled from their own country.
It was never intended to drag people from the country they were born in.

U.K Trial or No Trial.

Currently working on a campaign for Gary McKinnon entitled "Extradition - Abuse of International Human Rights". Wading through all the red tape involved to get Amnesty International to post it.

There is already one existing about Guantanamo -
http://www.amnesty.org/en/campaigns/Counter+Terror+With+Justice/issues/close-guantanamo

But I think the real issue is the extradition legislation is against international human rights.

And if we allow this to evolve we may wake up one day and live Natzi Germany all over again.

Ask yourself - How would you feel if a couple US Marshals came to your door and forceably aprehended you and detained you without any evidence of a crime? And worse - your own country does NOTHING to help you?

Nazi Germany all over again...

Amnesty International has another existing campaign.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/campaigns/counter-terror-with-justice/issues/stop-abductions

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/world/Hacker-hopes-hit--internet.4675449.jp

Scotland on Sunday today about Gary POP hit.

Correction re-newspaper article.

Gary is 42 (not 44yrs)
Gary did not put the song up there, a friend of mine did that when he heard the song.

The song got 370,000 hits on MySpace before it was "removed" by someone in America's "MySpace" company. (Not 100,000 as wrongly reported)

Gary said "My Space" should be called "Their Space" as they appear to remove anything they don't want up there.

However if this brings more attention to Gary's case, as it's appearing to do, then that can only be a good thing.

This one sided treaty has to go.

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=46041035

Hey, Gary is very talented - if this is the song that was removed?

I wish Gary the best in his last ditch attempts to avoid extradition.

You poor bast**d you are getting stitched up royally here. It is a joke, Why are Britain's allowing the US to walk all over our values, laws and civil rights.

"IMPORTANT" European Hacker that hacked the same American computers as Gary McKinnon is not extradited to America but is tried in his own country in Romania and is ordered to pay a fine and has a suspended sentence.
Do U.K citizens now have less rights than Romanians? (Full Link Below)
http://www.komonews.com/news/tech/34200709.html
By Associated Press
BUCHAREST, Romania (AP) - A Romanian computer programmer who hacked into computers used by the U.S. Navy, the Department of Energy and NASA has been convicted on Romanian charges and ordered to pay thousands in damages.

Victor Faur, 28, was also given a 16-month suspended prison sentence, his lawyer said Monday. The state court in the western city of Arad also ordered Faur to pay damages totaling $238,000 to the three U.S. government departments for hacking into their systems between Nov. 2005 and Sept. 2006, his lawyer, Sorin Bretotianu, said by telephone.

Bretotianu said the court convicted Faur on Thursday under a 2003 law making it illegal to break into an information system without authorization and to change, delete and alter data. Faur was tried in Romania because he hacked into the systems from his home in Arad.

The trial lasted 10 months. Faur argued that he exposed the vulnerabilities in the computer systems.

Bretotianu said his client is considering an appeal.

Faur had faced a possible 12 years in prison on the Romanian charges.

In 2006, Faur was indicted in the United States on nine federal counts of computer intrusion and one of conspiracy. He faces up to 54 years in prison if convicted of all counts, the U.S. Attorney's office said at the time.

The U.S. attorney's spokesman, Thom Mrozek, said at the time that Faur would be brought to Los Angeles for trial upon resolution of the Romanian case.

Faur's attorney, however, said he did not know about a case in the United States and the U.S. Embassy in Bucharest did not respond to repeated requests for comment.

The U.S. government alleged Faur was the leader of a hacking group called "WhiteHat Team," whose main goal was to break into U.S. government computers because they are some of the most secure in the world.

http://www.komonews.com/news/tech/34200709.html

Gary should be free. He is a harmless man who was innocently concerned for the world. He only revealed what millions of us already know from the plethora of information available for intelligent truth seekers. Humanity has hell to pay for it's unwise use of technology and the ones who should be on trial are those who have hidden these earth saving technologies for their own small minded concerns. Gary is a modern day hero who in the future will be remembered as a light bearer of the highest order. May Gary McKinnon be free. You are in my thoughts. Stay true my friend.

Note to reader. Please send these words to wherever they may help Gary.

Sincerely ,
Ben Vartuli

Its looks as if the Change.gov Agenda pages, i.e. Homeland Security, Technology, Foreign Policy etc. election promises have now been replaced with just a single page consisting of only a couple of vague paragraphs.

http://change.gov/agenda

Has Obama's Transition Team already reneged on their election promises ?

Link below to video of Gary performing his new song just put up on MySpace. This video actually shows Gary singing his song "Wanton Child" off planet. Interesting video and good song.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=46239776

MySpace seem to be holding back on the search for some reason as it's damn difficult to find via a search.
If you search for Gary McKinnon it doesn't appear, only if you search for the name of the song "Wanton Child" does it come up and for that you have to know the name which most people won't.

Why do they want to hold it back? Is this another conspiracy?

What an incredible video.

Don't bring him over here to jail him !

Bring him over here to sign on with a major record label !

Great Video !!!

55 MP's have now signed the EDM against the Extradition of Gary, with Labour so far being in the majority.

21 Labour MP's have signed

19 Liberal Democrats have signed

Only 12 Conservative MP's have signed the EDM that was initiated by Gary's MP David Burrowes Conservative

1 Scottish National Party MP has signed

1 "Social Democrat and Labour MP" has signed

(See List Below)

Signatures( 55)
Standard Order Party Groups Alphabetical Order Party Totals
Status
Open signatures All signatures

Conservative Party
Bercow, John
Bottomley, Peter
Burrowes, David
Harper, Mark
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Main, Anne
Moss, Malcolm
Scott, Lee
Shepherd, Richard
Stuart, Graham
Wallace, Ben
Open: 12 Closed: 0

INDEPENDENT LABOUR
Short, Clare
Open: 1 Closed: 0
Labour Party
Berry, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cohen, Harry
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cryer, Ann
Dean, Janet
Dismore, Andrew
Gerrard, Neil
Illsley, Eric
Jones, Lynne
Kilfoyle, Peter
McCafferty, Chris
Mullin, Chris
Palmer, Nick
Simpson, Alan
Turner, Desmond
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Rudi
Wareing, Robert N
Williams, Betty
Wood, Mike
Open: 21 Closed: 0

Liberal Democrats
Brake, Tom
Brooke, Annette
Burt, Lorely
Davey, Edward
Farron, Timothy
Featherstone, Lynne
Foster, Don
George, Andrew
Hancock, Mike
Holmes, Paul
Huhne, Chris
Leech, John
Pugh, John
Sanders, Adrian
Thurso, John
Webb, Steve
Williams, Mark
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Open: 19 Closed: 0

Scottish National Party
MacNeil, Angus
Open: 1 Closed: 0

Social Democratic and Labour Party
Durkan, Mark
Open: 1 Closed: 0

Last week Gary McKinnons first song was deleted by "My Space" when showing just under 360,000 hits before it reached number 3 in the charts and all within 48 hours.

The Edge TV documentary Re-Gary was listed under News and Politics on My Space and they deleted that....Why? See Link: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=42543544

When Gary's new song "Wanton Child" was put up on MySpace it failed to come up in any search on "MySpace"
Only after a lot of people complained to MySpace about Gary's song "Wanton Child"
not being included/being removed from their search engine,did it become available on their search engine but only under "videos"

However MySpace have blocked Wanton Child by Gary from the search for "Music" which is the most important and this will keep it out of the charts. Why are they doing this?

Gary's family & Friends wanted Gary to be seen as the harmless, gentle musician that he is and not be seen as some kind of cyber terrorist as some of the media like to portray him.

It all just doesn't make sense.

The Liberals are backing Gary's fight against extradition so I'm surprised there aren't more signatures from Liberal MP's on the EDM as there isn't much time left

Free Gary

The reason, Olive, why Gary's video and song are deleted is that the media: cable, satelite, internet (in some big cases: My Space, for example), print, etc. are controlled by people who care more about money than they do about people. Big money is with large corporations and governments, not independent artists or the middle class.

Have you noticed that just when President-elect Obama won, the mass media began "using" more people of color than before? The Black intelligencia has been here all along, but they were denied access. Just like Gary, there's doesn't seem to be a buck to be made with Gary at this time and bucking the system, so they support the U.S. government's position.

Another Protest has been arranged for Thursday 27 November from 4pm - 6pm outside the American Embassy, Grosvenor Square, London.

Please come along and get as many people as possible to come with you, so we can make some real noise!

Thanks

My comments from the Guardian press release at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/12/mckinnon-hacker

If Gary McKinnon who was just looking in network computers with no passwords, and looking for proof of UFO’s can hardly be called a cyber terrorist.

If Gary is allowed to be sent to the US many UK citizens will follow him including my wife Kerry who is 16 weeks pregnant yesterday and I without breaking any UK laws.

If you send Gary you also send My Wife and I parents of 4 young children to serve up to 3 years on remand in an Arizona desert inn chain gangs while our 4 kids go into care and possible adoption.

This is not just about Gary who has been fighting to get a fair trial for over 7 years it is also about Jacqui Smith who seems to be afraid to refuse any extradition to the US.

Maybe it is because the US has a policy of Rendition when extradition can’t be obtained.

So please before you go to sleep tonight think of UK citizens spending decades in Supermax prisons for crimes that may attract community service in the UK.

And remember this can happen to anybody and no evidence is needed.

Even David Blunkett who signed Gary’s extradition first has said he should not be sent to the US without assurances from the US.

Good luck Gary my family’s thoughts are with you.

To respond to comments Re-Gary's case, please go to the link below.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/12/mckinnon-hacker

'The Big Issue' associate Editor Michael Parker is going to try and contact Gary with a view to getting some wider coverage on his story - i phoned the Editorial office this morning, and he said he had tried to interview Gary some time ago about this. At the time, Gary did not want this to happen, but now any sympathetic coverage is bound to be to his favour and Michael Parker said he personally had been following the story all along. Unlike other timid publications, 'The Big Issue' is'nt likely to be cowed by the Government line and is sure to see it for what it is - willingness to lay down our citizens rights in their eagerness to appease the US government.(AND Big Issue = nationwide coverage, readers can get onto their MPs re EDM)

Hello here is the latest story from the Inquirer!

http://corruption.org.uk/2008/11/14/marillion-to-play-gig-for-mckinnon/

Yeah, I'm sure the Obama transition team is going to jump right on this. There are a few dozen more pressing issues to adress first. As the world is collapsing, do us all a favor and don't spam the Obama team with this bunk.

Gary needs to suck it up and do his time.

Sending out people to another country for a punish is like: caring to take the steps from hitler; people handling as animals, stones and sand alike.

Looking for an UFO and such is a seperate thing, never is a terrorists work. So go ban the law, its an old bad system that must DIE!

WHY can't the UK not handle their things by their own? Is this the power of hitler or is that just a law taking over us thats called "amerika" or what?

To get this crazy law going you must be out of your mind.

You want to do something?? Go take ACTION. KEEP US SAFE AND WARM. Thank you

Free Gary

I am disgusted to discover that a UK citizen can be extradited to the States for an internet crime against them, even when the crime was committed from here in the UK. Britain needs to wake up and tell the Yanks to stick it. Enough is enough. The USA has really become a dangerous regime that doesn't respect human rights. More so, I'm disgusted with our own government for doing such a secret deal with the USA in the first place!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)

Civil Disobedience (Thoreau)

Civil Disobedience (Resistance to Civil Government) is an essay by Henry David Thoreau that was first published in 1849. It

argues that people should not permit governments to overrule or atrophy their consciences, and that people have a duty to

avoid allowing such acquiescence to enable the government to make them the agents of injustice.

Quote, "In a constitutional republic, people often think that the proper response to an unjust law is to try to use the

political process to change the law, but to obey and respect the law until it is changed. But if the law is itself clearly

unjust, and the lawmaking process is not designed to quickly obliterate such unjust laws, then Thoreau says THE LAW DESERVES

NO RESPECT AND IT SHOULD BE BROKEN."

Thoreau asserts that because governments are typically more harmful than helpful, they therefore cannot be justified.

Democracy is no cure for this, as majorities simply by virtue of being majorities do not also gain the virtues of wisdom and

justice. The judgment of an individual’s conscience is not necessarily or even likely inferior to the decisions of a political

body or majority, and so “[i]t is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only

obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right.… Law never made men a whit more just; and,

by means of their respect for it, even the well-disposed are daily made the agents of injustice.

He exhorts people not to just wait passively for an opportunity to vote for justice, because voting for justice is as

ineffective as wishing for justice; what you need to do is to actually be just. This is not to say that you have an obligation

to devote your life to fighting for justice, but you do have an obligation not to commit injustice and not to give injustice

your practical support.

Why not extradite him?

He is an admitted criminal and performed these criminal acts with knowledge of his wrong doing.

The extraditions take place all the time between the Uk and US, why is this one different?

If he had murdered someone in the US and fled to the UK, would we even be having this discussion?

What what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot?

If an American citizen had hacked UK computers and perpitrated the same crime, would you same fine folks not want him extradited out of the US?

Dear All

Gary Himself & Us should fight it up for the sake and dignity of the Lad/Chap.

{Master Tomislav Pavlinic}

So?? Is he gone yet?? Lets get the ball rolling here!!!

This will be the undoing of your one sided Extradition treaty.

Extraditing computer geeks is a step too far.

British people will fight to change this one sided extradition treaty.

Evidence should always be required for any extradition from the U.K, just as we have to provide evidence to extradite any American citizen.

This will absolutely be the undoing of the one sided extradition treaty.

The Bullies should leave our land.

We are getting the Ball Rolling. To stop this one sided extradition treaty that is not being used for terrorists but is being used against British people with no previous criminal records.

Extradition was intended for serious crimes and this is far from a serious crime.

For any person or child with or without Aspergers; having a computer in your bedroom is like having a door into another world (similar in a way to the Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe)

I mean cyberspace is an adventure and how amazing for anyone to have a door into another world in the middle of your room.
Now how can you prosecute anyone for that?

What do the American government intend to do to our children when they walk through that door. The children that will be the new explorers of the universe in cyberspace.

Sort out your security and if you can't, then remove anything sensitive from the internet as there's no need for it to be there.

Your anger and vindictiveness is incredibly unbecoming.
Don't you ever smile and try and bring people together rather than wanting to Bully, Lock Up, Destroy, Bomb and control everyone.

You don't belong here. You may speak "American English" but I don't understand your language, it's Alien to me.

OMG!! You two really believe...don't you.

A door way to another world in your living room?

How can you prosecute someone for that?

Ok, let's use your analogy. When you let your children out into the world do you tell them they can go anywhere they want? Do anything they want?

Your Gary accessed that world and instead of respecting the boundaries that every world has, your Gary decided to walk into homes that did not belong to him, steal files that did not belong to him and even intentionally destroyed a few of the homes he invaded.

Fool yourself all you want, pretend not to understand my language all you want. Taking responsibility for your own actions is what I speak of and you will never understand that...will you? I am not the angry one...you are. Vindication will only come from the courts.

If I don't belong here then what world would you have me live in? A world where you only read what you want to read and people only think what you want them to think? If this is the world that you want your children to grow up in you are as socially challenged as the children themselves.

The children are in their rooms and that's the point and if you were the least bit realistic it's obvious that many children will explore cyberspace looking for U.F.O's or whatever.

It's alse clear that they're not murderers or Terrorists and don't deserve to be "Extradited" and locked up for years.

Gary McKinnon did not "Steal" anything. He did not destroy anything but you have Judged him guilty without trial.

You only believe vwhat you want to believe. You are vindictive and the accusations and extradition is totally out of proportion and if you don't know that then you are living on another Planet.

Why do you think Obama was voted in? Because Bush is seen as having lost the plot as have his supporters.

The illegal wars on other countries are when innocent peoples homes were invaded and their country destroyed, that's a real violent crime.

Most governments don't put any sensitive material on the internet and to do so is stupid.

If you don't lock your doors by using passwords and firewalls, then your Military is not responsible enough to own computers.

No one was murdered, or raped and extradition for computer misuse is a nonsense but you'll never realise that because you've lost the plot.

It's all about control and punishment and bullying other nations.

There are many extradition requests from America for acts that are not even criminal in the U.K but you don't have to provide any evidence, so you think you can snatch literally any U.K citizen on a whim.

Look at the case of Brian Howes and his wife. They have four young children and the U.S paranoia, vindictivness and over reaction has ruined their lives and that of their four children.
Now you're trying to extradite a young Jewish guy from North London.

Both of the above were conducting legal business in the U.K

Don't you ever see the good side of people and realise that you should be pursuing murderers and the like ratherv than conducting witch hunts in the U.K

Your Judicial system is nothing like ours and U.K citizens should be tried here and not dragged from their homes by the Bullies of the world.
You're so used to controlling everyone and everything that you think it's right.

Thousands of civilians including innocent children have been bombed/murdered in illegal wars and you think that's not a major crime?

Get a sense of perspective.

This is the reason decent Americans voted for Obama.
Our government just has to be reminded that "they work for us" and not for the U.S.A

Our rights to have evidence produced in a court of law was stolen from us while the rights of U.S citizens were increased.

This is not Justice and your actions are reminicent of fascism and the conduct of the Nazis.

First they came for the Jews but I wasn't a Jew so I didn't speak up,

Then they came for the communists but I wasn't a communist so I didn't speak up,

Then they came for the Moslems but I wasn't a Moslem so I didn't speak up,

Then they came for the computer geeks and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a computer geek.
Then they came for law abiding families but I didn't speak up because I didn't want to become involved,

and then they came for me and there was no one left to speak up for me...

That's not going to happen this time, because the time has come for all Good people to speak up about the gross injustice that is taking place

Gary did not cause thousands of dollars of damage to each computer he accessed.
Extradition to the US means that without having to produce any evidence, Gary must have caused at least $5,000 worth of damage to each machine he accessed.
"If you don't take it, [the deal] we'll prosecute to the max. So, yeah, I think they do want to try to push for 60 or 70 years in prison which is ridiculous, considering they had blank passwords, in other words, no passwords."
http://www.projectcamelot.org/gary_mckinnon_interview_transcript.html

Thank you Mark - Well said x

Mark's comments express perfectly all that we who support Gary are trying to get across. Not only the vindictiveness of our government and that of the current US administration towards him, but the betrayal of our civil rights under the present extradition fix-up. Does anyone know the current count of MPS signing the EDM, and what the deadline for it is? Shame on those of them who are indifferent to the threat over all of us in this country.

Hi Teresa

Last count was 63 for the EDM, i don't think there is a deadline but the Parliment close on December 3rd, as far as i know anything that hasn't been raised before then, doesn't get raised and is closed, therefore i have no idea what happens next, we will keep everyone informed as soon as we know x

is there a petetion or something? i'l happily sign it.

All i want is the truth. I been fascinated with ufo/aliens/space since i was young. And when Gary McKinnon said he found photoshopped images, i was hoping for some photo's/evidence :(

but yeh, he should be tried here definetly.

Its like moulder and the x files...we'll never know.

To: Eyes4Lies

From: Elle Hart, Elec.Eng.Tech / IT Security Specialist / Elite Hacker / Proprietor StarNET / Founder Canada2600 / IQ 190

Let us clarify the situation for Eyes4Lies.
A fact is something that has solid substanciated evidence.
An assumption is likened to heresay which is not admissible in a court of law.

:::::::::::::::::FACTS:::::::::::::::::::

1. Default passwords on servers - Microsoft clearly defines in their "END USER AGREEMENT" of every software they poduce that

they cannot be held liable for improperly configured systems. Not setting a password on the administrator's account is the

single most critical security blunder of all time. If you do not do this even a child can access your system by clicking a

mouse even by accident. Whatever happens after that is your exclusive liability and Microsoft will not take any legal

responsibility.
2. What hacking really is - Hacking is using extensive and detailed knowledge to subvert a system by forcing a software

vulnerability to gain access. Only highly skilled individuals possess the necesary knowledge to conduct these actions to gain

access.
3. No damage and no evidence - In the legal realm an alleged crime with no evidence or proof is not allowed into a court.

There is usually a hearing where the Justice decides if there is enough evidence to proceed to Trial.
4. International Human Rights and the Extradition Treaty - The Extradition Treaty is against the International Declairation of

Human Rights, which is an agreement in the highest level of law on the planet, international law, and was written by the

United Nations shortly after the last war with Nazi Germany to protect all the citizens and member countries from ever having

our rights taken from us again as was done with the Jews.
5. The crime - Innocent until Proven Guilty - The entire theory and purpose of law is to obtain justice. This is why we have

laws. The premis of law is to be innocent until a court of law has heard enough evidence to proceed with charges and

subsequent punnishment.

:::::::::::::ASSUMPTIONS:::::::::::::::::

Crime - Eyes4Lies assumes there was a crime when there was no crime commited.
Extradition - Eyes4Lies assumes the Extradition Treaty is just but it is against International Human Rights.

I would suggest you to conduct careful research. Knowledge will set you free!

And Steve...to answer your questions...

:: "He is an admitted criminal and performed these criminal acts

with knowledge" :: Gary admitted to nothing but clicking on a

default login button. This is not a criminal act.

:: "why is this one different?" :: This one is different because

there was no crime commited and extradition should not have been

applied in the first place.

:: "If he had murdered someone in the US and fled to the UK, would

we even be having this discussion? :: If He had murdered someone in

the US and fled to the UK we would not be having this conversation

because that would be a valid crime and the extradition law would

have been properly applied.

:: "If an American citizen had hacked UK computers and perpitrated

the same crime, would you same fine folks not want him extradited

out of the US?" :: If an American citizen had perpitrated the same

crime we would not be wanting him extraditied because this whould

then be the same Human Rights issue.

Hopefully this clears up any confusioon.

Elle

I agree with the points Elle made above. However I do not think that Gary McKinnon is innocent. He's just not guilty of a crime is all. What Gary McKinnon did was trespass on public property and invade the privacy of the US government, the US military and NASA.

Electronically speaking, he walked through the wide open outside doors of the Pentagon, NASA etc. Then he walked through their open office doors, and finally opened their unlocked filing cabinets and started leafing through papers, reading files and viewing pictures that did not belong to him.

I most certainly do not condone such behaviour. I believe that Gary McKinnon should be charged with trespassing and be fined $1000.00 US for such an intrusion. And if US authorities want to attach the sentencing provision of "community service" used in criminal cases for what is (or should be) a civil offence, I would not be opposed to that either. In fact I think it only appropriate that Mr. McKinnon should have to devote 100 to 200 hours of his own time to teaching the Pentagon and US authorities how to secure their computer networks. The only condition that I'd attach to this is that McKinnon do the teaching - and for that matter - paying his fine from BRITISH soil!! - And of course, be prosecuted on British soil.

I realize that some on this site may disagree with me on the sentence I'm proposing here However, I do believe it to be appropriate and not at all, unfair or unjust.

Brian

Thank you, Lucy for printing the number of MPs so far who have signed the EDM only 63 and 300 are needed. It's hard to see that the target will be met by December 4th, what a bunch of spineless users the rest of them are. They are only interested in listening to our concerns in so far as our votes lever them into power, after that the barriers come down.
Could we all club together and pay for some full page newspaper adverts to make people aware what is going on? this has been done for many other issues buried under secrecy and disinformation. A cross between Mark's and Elle's comments would be really powerful in waking the public up to what our government has stolen from us in the way of freedom. Elle's professional insight was brilliant, Gary is not a real 'hacker' at all.
i'm ready with my £10 contribution if the idea is viable.

Well, I would certainly agree that Mark summed up the views of the majority of posters here. Full of made-up facts and hypocracy.

Let's go through this AGAIN . . .

There is NO damage requirement under Count 1 of the Virginia Indictment, only the requirement that the computer was used for National Defense, which McKinnon has admitted. So he has admitted all elements of Count 1. Counts 2-5 of the Virginia Indictment and Count 1 of the New Jersey Indictment require $5000 AGGRAGATE across all affected computers, not $5000 per computer. In addition, $700,000 is not total damages alleged, it is the amount the U.S. was willing to stipulate to in the plea agreement. The alleged figure is over $1 MM, which divided by ~100 computers is more than $10,000 per computer. Not right about $5000 per computer.

The prosecution can push for 60-70 years, but can't get more than 60 years, and has no realistic chance of getting more than about 5-6 years absent a showing that McKinnon's actions caused death or serious bodily harm to someone, or hundreds of millions of dollars of damage. The COURT, not the prosecution, decides penalty. The prosecutors can influence sentences lower, but have very limited ability to influence them higher.

I love how you all talk of statements about "Biggest Military hack of all time," and comparisons between hackers and Hilter with such disdain. Then a sentence or two later compare McKinnon to Jesus or Bush to Hilter. It is like when you claim that negligence should be punished but deliberate acts should not. Or, where you go on about how he is innocent because he has not had a trial, but claim there was no damage caused before you have given the U.S. the oppportunity to present its evidence. Get a grip hypocrits.

And Elle, just give it up. Yes, 25 years ago Hacker meant computer savy and Cracker meant computer intruder, but times change and the media and the public have changed the meanings, so just give it a rest.

As to the whole walked in open doors, etc. drivel, the allegations are that he tried to open 70,000+ doors, opened about a hundred, and then proceeded to create secret backdoors so that he could get back in even if the doors were locked. Then, he read through people's diaries, looked at their pictures, and took copies of some of them home with him. After a while, he got a bit drunk with power and wrote messages on their walls and eventually kicked 2000+ out of their houses for a few days because he didn't agree with the President's policies. The one-hundred or so houses had to be scrapped and rebuilt. Those are the allegations. That's the best real-world parallel I can come up with atm.

- Han
p.s. Anyone who lists their IQ in an attempt to bolster their arguments has some real issues. :P

Thank You Han!!!

I was beginning to wonder if any other sane people kept track of this website.

I do suspect that right now there are at least one or two people working feverishly right now to craft a counter post that will be filled with hypocritical disdain for every fact that you presented and attempt to discredit you as a person.

But that will have little to no effect on the facts...will it.

@ Han - nothing you have written makes a strong case for extradition to the USA, rather than a trial in the United Kingdom, under UK law, does it ?

Eyes4Lies / Eye4Lies does not let facts get in the way of his prejudices and has poor research skills, even though he claims to be writing a thesis on the case, presumably in the expectation of financial gain.

See the previous blog comment threads, if you can be bothered:

House of Lords Judgment against Gary McKinnon now online

and

European Court of Human Rights to hear Gary McKinnon's application against extradition to the USA on 28th August 2008

@ Anonymous

The case for extradition is this . . .

1. The U.K. has declined to prosecute McKinnon. If they had decided to it is unlikely the U.S. would have done a subsequent prosecution. At this point, the statute of limitations has likely run in the U.K. and he could not be tried in the U.K. even if they changed their minds. So, in essence, the people here are not arguing for a U.K. trial but for no trial at all.

2. There are many basis of jurisdiction and crimes can be committed simultaneously in multiple States. If you cut down a tree and it falls across the border and crushes someone an act committed in the first State [territoriality] had an effect in another State [effects principle], either State could prosecute. With electronic crimes this is far more pervasive. As another example, U.S. citizens are subject to some U.S. laws regardless of where they are. For instance, it is illegal to bribe government officials in other countries. So a U.S. citizen [nationality] who bribes a U.K. government official [effects principle] in France [territoriality] may be subject to the jurisdiction of U.S., U.K., and French courts. And if he did it in order to target German citizens with harm [passive personality] or the instruments of Germany's government [protective principle] he could be subject to German courts as well.

3. Contrary to some statements made here, the interested parties and the evidence are all in the U.S. The U.S. government wishes to prosecute because the U.S. government alleges that it was harmed. The evidence, in the form of the compromised computers, McKinnon's computer(s), the personnel who handled and forensically examined the computers, and subpoenaed records from ISPs, etc. are all in the United States.

4. The 'One-Sided Extradition Treaty'TM does not come into play [at least with any force] in a case like this in which the defendant has admitted the conduct and therefore a prima facia case for extradition has been made by the defendant's own statements. So where is the actual prejudice? I appreciate McKinnon atempting to become the poster child for the 'One-Sided Extradition Treaty'TM because he wants to avoid the consequences of his actions. However, I do not think that his specific case is a compelling test case for overturning an allegedly-flawed law.

5. The people here support McKinnon and the talk of the 'One-Sided Extradition Treaty'TM, Asperger's Syndrome, Gitmo, etc. are all just excuses for him not to face the music. If people actually believed that this was just about the 'One-Sided Extradition Treaty'TM, then they would not be symathetic to lame calls to halt his extradition because he was recently diagnosed with Asperger's. Such calls boil down to a theory that people are not responsible for their actions and should not face the consequences of those actions if they can convince someone that they have a 'disability' of some sort. People with Asperger's are perfectly capable of differentiating right-from-wrong and controlling their actions. That McKinnon may suffer more hardship in prison due to this diagnosis and being away from family and friends would be a factor in sentencing and the decision on repatriation, should he be convicted. They are not appropriate reasons to halt extradition.

- Han

@ Han

1. The U.K. has declined to prosecute McKinnon.

That is not Gary McKinnon's fault.

The Crown Prosecution Service felt that they had less than a 50% chance of a successful prosecution, and so could not justify the expense.

If they had decided to it is unlikely the U.S. would have done a subsequent prosecution.

To have done so would have been illegal - double jeopardy - being tried more than once for the same offences, on the same facts.

Extradition would not have been permitted, either under the old or current extradition treaties and the relevant legislation, both in the USA and the UK.

At this point, the statute of limitations has likely run in the U.K. and he could not be tried in the U.K. even if they changed their minds.

The Computer Misuse Act 1990 section 1 Unauthorised access to computer material i.e. "computer hacking" used to have a 6 month time limit for a person to be charged after arrest, and a 3 year limit on bringing a prosecution.

However, that time limit has now been repealed, by the amendments to the CMA made in the Police and Justice Act 2006, which came into force only last month, October 2008.

The Computer Misuse Act 1990 applies to computer crimes anywhere in the world, not just in the UK.

It would, of course be unfair and unjust to apply this amended legislation retrospectively, but the UK Government has already done that with the Extradition Act 2003 in Gary McKinnon's case and in the cases of Babar Ahmad and the NatWest 3 bankers etc.

There was never any time limit for prosecutions under the Computer Misuse Act 1990 section 3 Unauthorised modification of computer material, so Gary could be prosecuted for the alleged deliberate damage which he is accused of, but which he has not admitted to, and which could easily have been done by any of the other people around the world who were also exploiting the same lack of any security on those systems at the same time.

So, in essence, the people here are not arguing for a U.K. trial but for no trial at all

Nonsense.

Han / Eyes4Lies

Again, study up.
This case is alot more detailed and complex than meets the eye.
The real issues are they grey areas of ::

a) What exactly is computer hacking - and default logins.
b) The flawed Extradition Treaty - and human rights.

Elle

@ Han's last post ...

1. "The U.K. has declined to prosecute McKinnon .."

Someone high up in the CPS (Russell Tyndall ?), when asked why this had been handed to US authorities, said "This cam from very high up, it came from way over my head." This sets off lots of subtle, and some not to subtle, legal alarm bells ringing.

2. Jurisdiction is not an issue because of what is detailed in (4) below.

3. "Contrary to some statements made here, the interested parties and the evidence are all in the U.S. .."

Under the text of the treaty, it is ILLEGAL to take any evidence to the requesting country until the extradition has been finally approved. The US Office of Naval Intelligence has had his hard-disk since 2002.

4. "The 'One-Sided Extradition Treaty'TM .."

Although the Senate have recommended the ratification of the treaty, it has still NOT HAD PRESIDENTIAL SIGN-OFF, which it requires to come in to law. I'm sure no American president would sign a treaty which meant that US nationals could be carted off without evidence using a treaty that the other party hadn't even signed ...

5. "The people here support McKinnon .. "

Gitmo was mentioned by US prosecutors, under Military Order No1. It was not brought up by his team and therefore is not "just an excuse for him .."

An Asperger's professional spotted him in an interview and contacted his solicitor who then had him diagnosed by the best MHP's in the UK, so that was not brought into the fray by his team and therefore is not "just an excuse for him .."

The UK has to seriously reconsider this treaty, and put a halt on current extraditions in the meantime. It was meant to be used to fast-track terrorists but the US is using it mainly for mild economic warfare.

Arresting people selling perfectly legal chemicals like iodine because some twat in the US uses it to make drugs.

Arresting people for selling electronics because some insurgent uses it to make IED's in Iraq.

Arresting people for running internet gambling sites that US CITIZENS use to dodge paying betting tax.

Arresting people for price-fixing when they did it ten years ago WHEN IT WAS LEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY !

Bottom line is it's all way out of line and there is no good argument for this treaty to stand let alone for Mckinnon or any of the others to submit to it.

I totally agree with Nefrtiti

(although, shouldn't it be Nefertiti?)

@ Han

My English isnt good, but that last message of yours is the non human friendly suplement, quit to see.
It is trying to put sick people in place of healty people, etc...

Who ever created the bad law in amerika must have been with that kind of mind. Shame that it (law or whatever) can be valid (almost?) everywhere.

Good people are trying to avoid the pain, the hurt. Trying to help others to feel good. Different people in this world. And its bad, the good ones are suffered from the bad people, and clear its that no talk wil do right. Right is whats good and not what you want to believe. You just want what you want to believe..

Its good to be clear

No one has ever been extradited for computer misuse, nor should they be.
Extradition was intended only for the most serious of crimes.

Hypothetical: If someone in England rings up someone in America and defrauds them out of some money, that person would be tried in England, not extradited to the U.S

The U.S governments are taking the p...s trying to extradite people for computer misuse, Trying to extradite people for legally selling chemicals online, and legally selling electronics online and for online gambling etc.

The bullying U.S government is out of control and is obviously having real difficulty finding any serious criminals,
so they pick on U.K citizens because they can, just to throw their weight around, in the same way that they bully the world and invade countries, murder hundreds of thousands of civilians and claim it's done in the name of Good.
We obviously have a huge divide in our understanding of the English language. Bullying and extraditing U.K citizens for low level crime or no crime at all is BAD.
Illegally Invading countries is BAD,bombing and murdering civilians in illegal wars is EVIL.

Perhaps you just don't understand what GOOD actually means but the present American government is not it.

Hopefully Obama will manage to win back the respect that America once had, as at the moment America has sadly lost all moral authority in the world.

Stop the Bullying.

Hi could you please let me know ref the 27 11 08 protest
as we have posted an article concerning the protest, we do realise that you must be very busy but would be obliged if you could let us know if this is still going ahead or as it been rescheduled to 5th Dec. thank you as we would like to help your campaign in any way we can.
further I informed you about a widget that was created to help with the campaign it carrys your logo and a countdown clock to 20-01-09 which is as you know is the date for the next US presidents inauguration, with a link to your campaign site this would help ref band width usage and we have been awaiting your approval for its use at the moment it is not in use and only exists as code that as not been published.
May I assure you that this communication is sincere as we have previously stated we do wish to help in any way we can, in conclusion may we take this oppurtunity of wishing Gary and your campaign all the very best.