Free Gary McKinnon

Very disappointed in this judgement. What is the situation now with regards to an appeal? What can we do now to help?

Just heard the (great) news. Garry has lost his appeal. Just think. if he had not been so curious or had so much time on his hands or had not been so STUPID he would not be in this predicament. A lesson for the rest of us. Not much longer for him to 'tolerate' British Justice. He will soon be able to 'tolerate' US justice. Bye bye Garry. Another one we can get rid of.

Later.

I am prepared to stand up and being counted as a supporter for Gary McKinnon. A naive man perhaps but certainly not a dangerous one. I cannot understand what purpose can be achieved by submitting him to the US justice system. This is a travesty of justice regardless of the side of the Atlantic you come from.

Well, he is foo
lish and deserves to be tried, but in the UK (where he physically committed the crime), not there. I am astonished at how this labour government is so ready to subvert the rights and interests of it's own citizens in sucking up to the US.

Is it right to extradite people from this country to one that has such draconian attitude to justice ?

Would be be extradited to Iran or Russia in such circumstances ?

Sad news he lost the appeal, hope he does better in the House of Lords. All the best Gary.

MA
Ireland

Amazing how the British Labour government caves in every time to the 'great' country across the pond.
Alas, this "special relationship" is rarely reciprocated.
It is a pity Tony & his Cronies aren't so bothered about deporting all the asylum seekers who lose their right to stay in this country.
RIP justice in the UK once again.

Serves the stupid sod right. People like him give us hackers a bad name. He's not a real hackers he's nothing more than the cyber equivalent of a peeping tom. Hope they string him up or electofry him.

send us a postcard from the states, looks like you will have plenty of time to write them.

If you expect to do hacking in another country and not pay for it then you are stupid. Justice is done - hope he rots in jail.

I bet half the idiots who support this prick would go nuts if he hacked in to their computer - hope he gets fucked in jail

WOW !

Gary seems to cause strong feelings either way. Shame the people that don't support him can't express themselves more maturely. Except Scotty Scotsman, he's quite funny.

Good Luck Gary ;+}

Erosion of Liberty

How did Tony Blair and co get us into this situation... The sooner Dave and Co are in Number 10 the better. Each one of us now faces US persecution on top of our own justice system. We have been put in a corner by the Labour party so that any dirty work that needs doing can be done over the pond. Great news, but why is it that Gary is an example of this working 'for us, the UK citizens'??? Let us see the hoards of asylum seekers (unwanted) sent back over seas, for trial, or just repatriated. We don't need more futuristic laws until we have a government that knows how to manage them. (ps- hope I don't get extradited for that!)

Let's see.. what has this fellow done? He's exposed security weaknesses in a computer system that an enemy of the U.S. could exploit. Seems to me that he should get a medal and who ever is responsible for the security weakness should have their head on the chopping block!!
As a U.S. citizen I'd like to thank Mr. Mc Kinnon for making my country more secure.

R.E Lee- Arlington, Virginia

Very sorry to hear about the negative decision. Must be very scary. To those of you writing abusive messages, have some respect, will you?

Essentially this is 'you'll do' case of scapegoatism. The fact that they got hacked into so easily suggests it's the pantagon sys-admin that's to blame. Unfortunately this is (yet another) case in which computer illitteracy is used for scaremongering....

I agree, R.E.Lee- Arlington, Virginia.

Since when has browsing become a crime? Is there something unpleasant to hide? An Abuse of Computer Systems perhaps?

And how craven of the Lower House to fold in to Friendly Fire Pressure .... a double whammy of an Inconvenient Truth.

We should all support Gary, yes stupid but if he broke the law in the UK try him in the UK, its one way traffic, see what will happen when we try and ask the Americans to send some one back!! We cant seem to deport any of the Afghans who highjacked the airliner to the UK, they are still here, however no problem with a Brit, surely his humane rights will be infringed in the US, they promised to "fry him"

Gary is not a hazard to America. He comes across in interview as a misguided, possibly drug-addled fool.

His actual offence is to show for all who will look that American computer security was a bluff, and that the US was apparently at the mercy of even such a disorganised amateur. America should learn it's lesson, as it will save no face by jailing Gary, and such an action would demonstrate to the world a complete lack of understanding on the part of the United States.

Justice is not served by extradition or a long jail term. The average american citizen is not protected from harm by depriving Gary of his libery.

The careers of a handful of American prosecutors might be advanced by picking on an easily identified, largely defenceless target rather than concentrating on actual criminals or state-sponsored adversaries. The American public do not employ prosecutors to savage a lame duck like this.

Consider the cost of trying, convicting, jailing, feeding and clothing Gary in prison for 45 years, providing guards, etc. versus the cost of telling the US military to choose secure passwords, and auditing their systems once every so often and keeping Gary a free man who pays taxes and contributes to society.

The correct course of action is clear. Gary should be forbidden to mount such attacks in future, and the matter should then be essentialy dropped.

Unlucky Gary, better get the lube out and get ready to get your rear end chizzled on a daily basis

Well gary,you got caught,be a big boy,and go take your punishment like a man!....remember this lad,no ones above the law.
Stop being such a wimp!...

How convenient that the US releases a uk based Guantanamo detainee just before this hearing. John Reid should be ashamed of himself, sending an ordinary british man to face a kangaroo court and a mindboggling 45yr sentence for
what ? .... He's not murdered anybody, he's not a member of Alqaeda ... but they seem to be treating him like one. There is no justice where the US government is concerned they make the rules up as they go along.. I hope you can get an appeal Gary ...you DO have a human right !! more right than a few windows pc's

How convenient that the US releases a uk based Guantanamo detainee just before this hearing. John Reid should be ashamed of himself, sending an ordinary british man to face a kangaroo court and a mindboggling 45yr sentence for
what ? ....
Breaking the law...garys addmitted it himself!....

Lets remind ourselves of what garys charged with:
November 12, 2002

U.S. Department of Justice
United States Attorney
Eastern District of Virginia
2100 Jameison Avenue
Alexandria, VA 22314
Contact: Sam Dibbley
Phone: (703) 299-3822
London, England Hacker Indicted Under Computer Fraud and Abuse Act For Accessing Military Computers

Paul J. McNulty, United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, announced that Gary McKinnon, of London, England, was indicted in Alexandria today by a federal grand jury on seven counts of computer fraud and related activity. McKinnon faces on each count a maximum sentence of 10 years of imprisonment and a $250,000 fine. The United States intends to formally request that the United Kingdom extradite McKinnon. According to the indictment, between March of 2001 and March of 2002, Gary McKinnon accessed and damaged without authorization 92 computers belonging to the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Department of Defense and NASA, and 6 computers belonging to a number of private businesses. One count charges McKinnon with accessing and damaging without authorization a computer used by the military for national defense and security. Other computers hacked by McKinnon include computers located at military bases throughout the United States and the Pentagon. The indictment alleges that Gary McKinnon scanned a large number of computers in the .mil network, was able to access the computers and obtained administrative privileges. Once he was able to access the computers, McKinnon installed a remote administration tool, a number of hacker tools, copied password files and other files, deleted a number of user accounts and deleted critical system files. Once inside a network, McKinnon would then use the hacked computer to find additional military and NASA victims. Ultimately, McKinnon caused a network in the Washington D.C. area to shutdown, resulting in the total loss of Internet access and e-mail service to approximately 2000 users for three days. The estimated loss to the various military organizations, NASA and the private businesses is approximately $900,000. The case was indicted as the result of a 17 month investigation by the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command’s Computer Crime Investigative Unit (CCIU), NASA Office of the Inspector General, Naval Criminal Investigative Service, 902nd Military Intelligence Group-Information Warfare Branch, Defense Criminal Investigative Service, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations and the United Kindom’s National High Tech Crime Unit. Also assisting in the investigation were the U.S. Army Computer Emergency Response Team located at Fort Belvoir, Va., the Army Regional Computer Emergency Response Team at Fort Huachuca, the Naval Computer Incident Response Team, and the Department of Defense Computer Emergency Response Team. The case will be prosecuted by the United States Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of Virginia and the Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section for the Department of Justice.

###

Well seeing as Gary McKinnon violated US law by breaking into US computer networks, I think it's entirely appropriate that he is tried in the USA.

I read that some of you are complaining about the USA not reciprocating in our "Special Relationship". Might I point out to you Brits that we did let you guys repatriate those radical muslim extremists back to the UK? Heck, if you guys WANT the Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadis back, you're welcome to them. Maybe they'll hit Whitehall someday instead of the US Capitol. It's easy to forget 9/11 because it didn't happen over there.

With regards to the idea that Gary McKinnon's "browsing" into military networks is wholly innocent. I might understand that once or twice, but 97 times??? I think his credibility is wearing thin. No matter how much he may claim it was innocent curiosity, Stupidity is not an acceptable legal defense.

At the end of the day, when all is said and done - he's gonna get bummed senseless in guantanamo bay

Breaking the law...garys addmitted it himself!....

Posted by: maurice | April 3, 2007 01:23 PM

Lets remind ourselves of what garys charged with:
November 12, 2002

Posted by: maurice | April 3, 2007 01:41 PM

MAURICE .... you talk utter BOLLOCKS .... hackers should not face 45 years in prison Those 'charges' you copy & pasted (I doubt you even read them) are not all necessarily the truth !!! .... Oh incidently this site is meant for people 'SUPPORTING' Gary ... you should be directing your negativity elsewhere its not needed here ...

What did he expect? He was snooping on the biggest nation in the world. Did he think they were gonna let this one pass? Really dumb if that is what he thought.

He has committed the crime, i'm afraid he now has to do the time.

It would be the same if someone from another country was snooping on our military - we would want them tried here in this country.

Typical US bigotery....you should see, how fast they extradite all farking marines out of germany who are accused of rape and other things, just to have them not stand trial.

Of course he didnt think he was going to let it pass, hes not that dense. Well, here's a newflash, we dont want him tried in your stupid murderous country because of your sick and sadtistic so called judicial system - have you got a problem with that? Right, fine, don't visit this blog!

I heard this on the news this morning, bad indeed. I hope the next appeal. He sbeen made into a scapegoat

Fac eit - NASA should be the ones coming under fire for lying to us. The US government are the ones who should go through this - ha dthey not lied their tits off about UFO activity then he wouldn't have done the most evil thing ever (hes right up there with Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussien with this, folks *sarcasm) - hacking into a few measly computers

I swear, if Gary McKinnon is extradited I will never ever step foot in your poxy country or support it via the tourism industry, and I will call for John Ried's resignation

I'm sorry this message is so angry, and I'm more sorry you lost your appeal, Gary. All the best for the house of Lords

We've just jailed the head of a cocaine gang for 30 years in the UK. Gary should not be handed over for prosecution to a rabidly over-zealous United States that is hell-bent on vengence.

Will gaoling Gary prevent future attacks? No.

Would correct protocol in the US have prevented Gary from affecting their systems? Yes.

The only business the US has with Gary is to learn what he did, and to learn how to prevent what he did occuring in future.

All of the contributers who are so keen on male rape obviously have a mental problem, or have some deviant sexual issues which they ought to sort out.
If male rape turns them on; they are obviously on the wrong forum.

Very sad people.

Jan

"an easily identified, largely defenceless target"

Hmmm. Discretion would be the Beta part of Valour for Mr McKinnon's Offensive Defence may be in a Stealth you'se in the US do not currently Employ to Generate Communications Control.

Best Inquire of Q and/or Qinetiq c/o MOD re Beta dDevelopment SkunkWorks ... Hands across the OCean and all that Jazzy, Rock and Roll Parallel Dimensions Stuff.

What strikes me in all this case is that it proved so easy to hack various US government networks.

Personally, if I were intent on supporting the lad & getting him out his plight I'd try & do 10times more damage & disruption than he did. That is, instead of writing letters of support or signing petitions.

Believe me, done in a proper way this course of action definitely would've worked.

PS. He wasn't smart enough if he failed to attend to his own security with due respect.

Having read all of the above comments it is apparent that the yanks don't like it when anybody shows them that they have f****d up. Afdterall they are the 'greatest nation in the world', snigger. I must agree with some of the comments that it should be the officialdom across the pond that should be hauled up in front of the courts for ignorance of basic computer security and total arrogance in thinking that nobody would dare hack their networks, HELLO Guys you screwed it, live with it and get your house in order. Good luck Gary.

"The only business the US has with Gary is to learn what he did, and to learn how to prevent what he did occuring in future."

Posted by: Richard George | April 3, 2007 03:26 PM

This is the 1st and only logical explanation for all the US efforts.

What amazes me is that so many people want to support Gary, without knowing whether he did or did not do damage. Typical of our system. Why do we want to stand up for someone that violated national and international laws and conventions? Not only that, he is an embarrassment to our country, hacking into one or more of our allies' systems. How do we know he didn't do the same thing to our systems without being caught, damaging our national defense infrastructure in some way?

Anyone can come across looking like a sod in an interview. Watch any news broadcast for an example. That doesn't mean he is really a clueless sod. The man is clever, and able to get into systems that many of the populace cannot. And subvert those systems.

Hopefully our ministries learn better defense tactics from his exploits. Meanwhile, Gary should face the charges like a man. The US justice system does allow you some rights and defense options, so this is not a totally unfair situation. No one can tell me that he didn't know what he was doing was fundamentally wrong. He just thought he was too clever to be caught. All this attempt to look innocent after the fact is a sham. Drop the fascade. Be a man.

Gary, good luck, long life, perhaps you'll learn something and come out on the other end able to do something positive with your life.

It's not a surprise he Gary lost his appeal. The US doesn't take too kindly to individuals fooling around or being "curious" about anything connected to the military.

I wish Gary the best with the House of Lords, but realistically I can't see anything good coming of it.
Once in the US, don't waste your money on a defence counsel. Jail awaits. And probably not a nice one at that.

"With regards to the idea that Gary McKinnon's "browsing" into military networks is wholly innocent. I might understand that once or twice, but 97 times???"

G-Loc,

Are we to assume then that a US military network can be browsed 97 times before anyone thinks about being insecure and hacked?

Strewth, what sort of a Mickey Mouse Operation is being Run over there?

Those of you who wish to criticise Gary McKinnon's foolish actions in the past , or if you want to express support for him in the Kafkaesque legal process he faces, are free to do so here, but politely.

However, we are also free to complain formally the UK Police, and to your ISP's and your employers, if you break their Internet Acceptable Use Policies, by posting male rape and death threats here.

The same applies if you advocate any violence or computer crimes etc. against the US Government or others.

"And subvert those systems."

Oh, and who says that, amazed?

Surely you mean "And alert those systems"?

Some of the twisted and sadistic comments on here seem to be rather dodgy, and should be deleted by the administrator forthwith. Maybe he or she is fast asleep, and hasn't read the thread yet.

In regards to Gary, one ought to remember that the government did little to help the British victims of Guantanamo Bay who were never charged with any crime, and he was a major participant in the racist war on terror against Muslims, so human rights mean nothing to Tony Blair, as he continues to curry favour with American republicans.

Perhaps Gary can try the European Court, if the House of Lords fails supports the government on this issue.

Good luck, Gary.

It's funny how many of the anti-gary posse seem obsessed with anal sex...

Just a thought!

Whoops - forgot to say good luck to Gary.

Gary hurt the pride of deceitful American conservatives spending huge budgets on the arms industry, and immoral wars while people are starving around the world, by exposing that their "heightened security" is a scam. As flying saucers don't exist, you would have thought, (like most agencies that turn hackers into members of staff), he might have helped American computer systems protect themselves from real terrorists.

It's all political, and it sucks. Whatever happened to American humanitarianism???

The twisted posters are probably homophobic BNP nazis from Barking, or something, unsure of their sexuality...... lol

I didn't think such thickos even knew what computers were.

The USA will FRY!
You will push the hackers
far enough, and then
BOOOOM, life as you know it
will end. Do you really think you can defeat the millions of us? I've got a military secret: You are all IDIOTS, (big secret!)
and it's not such a secret anymore! We don't want your war machine, and it WILL be shut down one way or the other. You have been warned. Back OFF, or BE EXTINCT. Your choice!

The U.S. is a stupid evil paranoid nation, why is this man not tried in Britain where he actually committed his crime?
Because the US wants to continue to subvert and influence even control all national sovereignties in their mad rush to be the world's chief government and police force

Mr. McKinnon committed a crime against an entire nation. For him and his legal team to now plead for British assistance with his trial suggests a dangerous precedent: For what if I, an American, hack British gov't. sites?

Welcome to New Jersey, Gary! You are truly stupid, and deserve whatever judgement you receive.

The alien spaceships technology, is the property of the American people, you mean?

Roswell belongs to George Bush, not the United Kingdom, or anywhere else...

How dare he steal such intellectual secrets from the United States!

This is a scandal, it was another matter entirely when USA Department of Defence Intelligence machine probed around mine looking for an unsecured email server. When I emailed them they did not even have the decency to reply. So it is ok for those incompetents to try to gain unauthorised use of my network (they failed) but not Ok for us to do it back... it actually does raise a relevant point that they clearly have a grossly mismanaged and insecure network, perhaps they need to employ properly recruited IT staff.. Once again us Brits have been far too weak in handing him over.

They spend more on (weapons) hardware than (IT) software. So much for the protective nature of the War On Terror.

Put your trust in the lawd gary!..coz u ass...belongs to me!
'sweetcheeks'...

Best of luck to Gary on this, why they aren't employing him instead of making an example of him is beyond me!

I have just read about Gary McKinnon.

Though I believe he was curious, he was also a bit too confident. With terrorsim still looming and very blatant in our world, it was foolish for Gary to "just see if I can do it" It does not matter that he didn't personally damage the system, but that he breached it in the first place. That in itself is a very real threat. He should have breached his own country's government computers if he didn't want to be "put out"

Its the US security chiefs who should be on trial for putting their "great" nation in jeopardy,i mean ffs,the guy deserves a medal for exposing the frailties of supposedly the power nation,it gets my fucking goat that whenever America want something from us they get it,Iraq,afghanistan etc,etc. Pull our troops out,let Gary stay and tell them to shove their egotistic heads right up their dumb asses... You lot who bad mouth this guy ought to be ashamed of yourselves...he caught out the tightest security in the world..this man is my idol. GOOD LUCK GARY. at the most he should be tried here and slapped with a paltry fine. that would piss these yankee wankers off. yeehaa

What a terrible state of affairs.
Gary Mckinnon has my full support.
Jacobyte in Chicago.

http://jacobyteusa.spaces.live.com

@ Ron - you are assuming that there has actually been a trial of any sort - there has not, only extradition hearings at which there have only been unfounded and untested allegations without any actual prima facie evidence having been presented.

Do you not believe in the principle of "innocent until proven guilty", on the basis of actual evidence ?

If you were stupid enough to attempt to hack UK Military systems, firstly, you would never have got so far as Gary apparently did with the US systems - partly because they have never been as exposed to the internet, and partly because they were, even in 2001, far better secured than the US ones,

Even back in 2001, the UK Ministry of Defence was using non-standard hash functions in the Microsoft NTLM login, which would have prevented Gary's apparent way into the US systems, even if, they had been so stupid (which they are not) as the US Military were, to have left the Local Administrator password at the default (blank) value, not simply on one machine, but on thousands of them. This configuration error should have been noticed and rectified, no later than the first security audit of these systems i.e. within a week or a month, something which the the incompetent, or perhaps corrupt, senior military officers and civilian IT managers should be prosecuted for, rather than any low level US military systems administrators, who were "only obeying orders".

Secondly, when, not if you were detected attacking UK Military systems from the USA, you would be arrested and almost certainly tried in the USA for such crimes.

The UK Government, would, however, have to provide some prima facie evidence to a US Court, if they wanted to extradite you to the UK, or even to prosecute you in the USA.

Under the notorious Extradition Act 2003, the US authorities no longer need to provide any prima facie evidence whatsoever, even if they have some available, for extraditions from the UK to the USA, even though this was the accepted system, in both directions, from 1972 until 2003.

N.B. prima facie evidence is not the full, detailed prosecution case, but just enough for a Court to decide on the seriousness and viability of the accusations.

In Gary's case, if the US Authorities had provided such prima facie evidence, especially regarding, what everyone who has ever been involved in the installation of Microsoft servers could testify to, i.e. the vastly inflated claims of financial damage which forms such a large part of the US accusations against Gary, it is likely that this would have been challenged successfully in a UK court.

See UK Commercial Law case precedent on alleged financial damage to a remotely hacked server ?

The amounts of money claimed for each system breached ($5,000 a time) is enough to buy and install at least two brand new computer systems per "incident", even at 2001 prices.

It is as if someone who was claiming damages for criminal trespass, was demanding financial compensation equivalent to the cost of building two new houses, when the trespasser had not even broken a window !

Even in the USA, this exorbitant gold plating of the "financial damage claims", including irrelevant items such as the cost of the cost of post incident investigations (a principle which is never applied to say, a murder or even a terrorism trial) is likely to be thrown our by a US civilian court, but , not, necessarily by a military tribunal, which Gary may well have to face, and which does not comply with international standards of justice.

QUOTE: Those of you who wish to criticise Gary McKinnon's foolish actions in the past , or if you want to express support for him in the Kafkaesque legal process he faces, are free to do so here, but politely.

However, we are also free to complain formally the UK Police, and to your ISP's and your employers, if you break their Internet Acceptable Use Policies, by posting male rape and death threats here.

The same applies if you advocate any violence or computer crimes etc. against the US Government or others.

Is this or is not a place where people can vent their feelings about the relevant subject.

I don't agree with what everyone has said on here but this doesn't mean they are not free to write what they feel - you have made this a public forum/blog and as such have to view what is written.

Your view of "rape threats and death threats" seems a tad over the top seeing as though nobody has made any threats at all.

People are free to express their opinions and feelings towards this subject and to be honest I don't think any report to any police/isp/employer ???? would go any further than ok, thankyou for letting us know.

If these people are a problem - ban their ips

Maybe the US should have tried that with old Gaz - then he might not be on the next plane to porridgeville, USA

@ puzzld -

Is this or is not a place where people can vent their feelings about the relevant subject.

I don't agree with what everyone has said on here but this doesn't mean they are not free to write what they feel - you have made this a public forum/blog and as such have to view what is written.

No ! This blog is published in the United Kingdom, therefore you are not completely free to say whatever you feel like.

The normal laws of decency and the UK laws against libel, harassment incitement to violence, racial hatred, conspiracy, terrorism, computer misuse etc. apply, regardless of the fact that this is on the internet.

---
No ! This blog is published in the United Kingdom, therefore you are not completely free to say whatever you feel like.

The normal laws of decency and the UK laws against libel, harassment incitement to violence, racial hatred, conspiracy, terrorism, computer misuse etc. apply, regardless of the fact that this is on the internet.
---

You seem to be saying that since the server that hosts the blog is located in the UK then people posting to the blog have to follow the UK's laws against racial hatred, harassment, incitement to violence, &c.

The US has none of those laws yet, if I am reading you correctly, you think that if someone from the US posted something that incited racial hatred for instance, they could be tried in a UK court. You just made the US DOJ's point.

@ Rocket J. Squirrel -

The US has none of those laws yet, if I am reading you correctly, you think that if someone from the US posted something that incited racial hatred for instance, they could be tried in a UK court. You just made the US DOJ's point.

If the UK authorities ever did get around to prosecuting someone under the increasing number of laws which also (wrongly) claim UK jurisdiction world wide, they would have to provide prima facie evidence to a US court either for prosecution there, or for an extradition hearing.

So, no, that is not the same thing as Gary McKinnon's case at all.

However, some of the malicious posters to this blog are not only based in the USA, they are using UK ISPs, so they do easily fall within the jurisdiction of the UK police.

Even before that stage is reached (and it has not yet), breaking the terms of your ISP's internet acceptable use policy will lose you your account with them, and breaking the internet policies of your work place or educational establishment will have more serious consequences.

None of this is specific to this Free Gary blog, it applies to all UK websites.

I see the US government have wheeled out their crowd of whackos again to target Gary on this website.
Everytime there's a judgement against Gary, out they come right on cue.
They try and browbeat everyone into submission and wonder why it's not working.
Well we're well used to seeing those campaigns of destruction and bully boy tactics when an individual is targeted by the US government and we're becoming just a tad sick of it.
We are not fooled whether you pretend you are British, or talk/spell in cockney slang or Scottish dialect; we know who you are.
Trust & Respect has to be earned and brute force doesn't earn it.

Jo

I see the US government have wheeled out their crowd of whackos again to target Gary on this website.

Wrong!..im british actually!...

Trust & Respect has to be earned and brute force doesn't earn it. ...brute force..as in garys brute force attack?..or am i only stating the ovbious?...

I've just found this story and was looking to send a message of support in what looks like a case of breaking a butterfly on a wheel. However after reading some of the other comments on here, I don't half feel depressed now at the state of the world and the vitriolic poison that seems to have infected far too many people. I think folk need to go & look up the difference between justice and vengeance in a dictionary.
I hope the appeal to the House of Lords goes ahead and the guy gets a trial in the UK. Which should mean it'll be fair and balanced, not a circus created by some shark with political ambitions and a taste for seeing himself on TV, and any sentence will fit the crime.

You may be British Maurice but unfortunately your an idiot, on that basis your comments are ignored.

"It's easy to forget 9/11 because it didn't happen over there." - G-Loc

G-Loc, Just who the hell do you think you are ? Did you forget 7th july 2005 ? London?? transport network being bombed??? hello ???? bloody idiot.

Indeed he did commit a crime. But 40 odd years for browsing over an un-secured US network is ridiculous. I have seen rapists, child molseters, and murdurers get away with less.

The US are trying to show what happens should you try the same.

Gary only has one thing to be blamed for, and that is getting caught.

I think this man lost enough in the process, and would appear to of lost his addiction. I would say banning him from using a computer on the internet would be enough for him.

Fair play to you, if you go down, make sure you give those opposing you in court the finger.

Oh - and release everything you found out, sell the information to the media.

Gary, it seems like you've put a lot of energy in something you belived!
Maybe you lost focus, got distracted from you real genuine motifs...
We should have the right to information that could make us better people. Use that information wisely!
Get back to that positive energy, rise above them, be honnest with yourself,listen to your hart, look after yourself. Be confident, you are here for a reason, defend your space!
You are not alone..
Many positive things will happen because of what you did! Think about them and them only!
TRUST THE PROCESS (LIFE)!
BE WELL!

Why the Hell should we hand Gary over?

Let's just reflect for a brief moment. Are the US going to hand over those responsible for the death of Matty Hull in Iraq? NO...Oh.... OK then what about the cockpit tapes?......NO

This 'special relationship' does seem a tad one-sided.

The US should start thinking a little more before steam-rollering over others with their own, misguided self-interest. Hardly likely to win 'hearts and minds' in the current climate.

Good luck Gary

Maurice, what makes you think I was talking about you? Bit of a Freudian slip maybe?

I was referring to the Wackos & not to sensible posts either for or against.
I have no recollection of which post you made but it's interesting that you identified with the Wacko description.

Jo

@jo

I was referring to the Wackos & not to sensible posts either for or against.
I have no recollection of which post you made but it's interesting that you identified with the Wacko description.

Whackos as in US whackos!..thats the word you used wasnt it,you probably WISH everyone who has commented on this topic,WAS from the USA..YOUR WORDS OF HATE AND DISCRIMINATION SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

I,unlike you,dont advocate breaking the law,any law!...

If you know anything about hacking,most ethical hackers tend to steer clear of govt computers,etc.

Why..because they know if they get caught,then the stakes are very high indeed.

Right from the off gary has admitted his guilt,he has no defence,zilch..zero.

Hes no ethical hero in my eyes,just a nerd who got caught.

Ignorance is not a defence,neither is stupidity,or foolishness.

If id hacked into a new york banks system,and stole say $300,000, and i was found out,then id expect that usa bank to file charges in america...

Why?..because the actual damage and theft was commited in usa.

Gary was offered a deal i believe,if i was him,i would have taken that deal.

Hes already admitted his guilt,so punishment must follow...

I aint interested in the excuses being thrown up here in garys defence,bottom line is he knew right from the start that what he was doing was criminal.

And if i was gary,id get rid of this blog,and the links to 'alleged radicals' that are on the homepage,coz chances are gary,when and if you do go to face the music in the usa,then at the sentencing stage,no doubt this blog will come back to haunt you!.

I do have a degree of sympathy with garys plight,it must be horrible for him at the moment,5 years of uncertainty.

Many years ago i broke the law too,and i got hammered!,i always thought i was a decent bloke,just like gary,and i used alcohol,or the persuit of it as my get out clause.

Point is,i took it on the chin,i had too.
Using ignorance,and alcohol wasnt a defence in law.

If the worst does come to the worst gary,id do this,rather than end up in a uk jail awaiting extradition,possibly for weeks,months,go buy a ticket to usa,then go to usa embassy and hand yourself in,im sure they will issue you a visa!

Might seem cruel,but ive been in uk jails,and they are shitholes!.

Ill say no more,and i wish you all the best gary,but when the going gets tough...the tough get going.

He broke the law whilst in Britain, so he should be tried in Britain. America has become an evil nation whose people are so indoctrinated they can justify almost any kind of horrific behaviour, because it is in the name of "freedom". They actually believe that anything America does, must be right. Now our awful, incompetent and treacherous government seems to be willing to send them whoever they demand, for whatever reason, without evidence and regardless of what's going to happen to them.

SHAME ON AMERICA, SHAME ON GREAT BRITAIN AND PLEASE GOD LET ME SEE THE DAY THAT THE RUSSIANS AND CHINESE WIPE THE UNEDUCATED SMILES FROM THEIR SELF-SATISFIED FACES.

@ maurice - this blog is not run by Gary McKinnon, partly because once the extradition proceedings started, he was forbidden to use any computer connected to the internet as part of his bail conditions, even though he had been free to do so for the previous 3 years since his initial arrest.

That did not make the USA any safer from his activities, which ceased when he was arrested, it only hindered his contacts with his lawyers and with the media, which was probably the intention.

The links to other cases under the same Extradition Act 2003 have all been mentioned, along with Gary's case in the debates in Parliament on this legislation.

It is not as if the UK and US authorities somehow do not know about them.

All of the UK's Opposition political parties, with the exception of a small Ulster Unionist one, and the ruling Labour Government, are united in their opposition to this bad law.

Gary has always said that he is willing to face a UK trial, and, if necessary, to serve prison time in the UK.

go buy a ticket to usa,then go to usa embassy and hand yourself in,im sure they will issue you a visa!

Incredibly, under the Kafkaesque bureaucracy which prevails, that is not true !

Jeremy Crook, the former boss of Peregrine Software, decided to voluntarily go to the USA to face the charges against him, but was not allowed to have his Passport back, because the
US authorities objected, thereby forcing him to go through the Extradition Act 2003 process !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1856886,00.html

Anyone got a link to the Court of Appeal judgment?

@ Dushyant - the Judgement is now online at

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2007/762.html

N.B. Crown Copyright etc. so it cannot be re-published here in full.

I prepared a short comment. Then I looked again at all the talk.

Most of perhaps all of the talk is wrong. Just as the judges who are not qualified technical people are forced to face this kind of case with no help Crazy!. I ended up with one huge post on the technical stuff that makes Garry look whiter than white. I diddn't design it that way!

Anyway, here it is and if it don't fit, tough shit for teh admins.

, the lights dimn over the next 4 blocks!

Gary evidently became addicted to the surge of "power", the feeling that hacking produces in those people who get involved deeply, even those on teh extreme , pathe. It is an addiction, pure and simple. If you are powerless, unemployed etc then there is a VERY strong temptation to "see what you can do" on-line. Gary doesn't need extradition, he needs treatment.

Why is the US taking this so seriously?

I guess it is evident that their Windows systems were

a) Not well maintained
b) Not well configured
c) Not well designed

Most of the literature I have looked at over the years (And I read a lot), and my personal experience, says that Windows systems are hideously vulnerable to attack by anyone. Forget the firewalls, forget the anti-virus systems. You can't stop someone looking at your private data other than by using very highly skilled and very highly motivated UNIX or, at the limit, Linux people (close but they are still struggling a bit, this is hard stuff) on very good professionally built PCs, very well protected by hardware routers, briges etc. But,..."even then...' the protection will crack somewhere.

It is very expensive to pay such people (there are only a few thousand of them in the world).

So the US took the cheap and dirty route and it failed against an attacker who is obviously not one of the top echelon. Gary was struggling to understand software he could get for free on the Internet. He felt power. it made hm feel goood. So good he could not stop!

That tells me that this so far from this being a technically serious case that I would not be surprised if the USA's competitors are listening in to EXACTLY what is going on in the Pentagon on this issue. Just the hacks are a lot smarter than Gary's. They will be custom designed. That takes a specialist days or weeks, in some cases years, of studying Windows and it's gung-ho security, which makes it child's play to get in.

The sophisticated hackers don't care. Their software is never released to anyone on the Internet unless they want to distract opponents into fixing holes that are only used by amateurs and ignoring the easier ways in that a few years study by a few brilliant people, (the best the world can offer), can find. Those folks regard Windows a a "kid's toy".

Read carefully on Windows security on the Internet?

That will take an average 120+ IQ person several years and lots of late nights. I am pretty bright (thank you god) but it took me 10 years to realize how vulnerable my company's systems were. (and I don't mean simple stuff like Steve Gibson who will test your home firewall for free.If it passes then get worried.) I mean a determined hacker , bright and highly motivated by cash or reputation? I would guess (and it is a guess because I am so low down on that kind of A-list, I just am so busy I don't even have the time to look. But I make an honest living, (thank you God). Relaxed, at home, in the Russia, The Ukraine, or indeed with the right software, Los Angeles, London Paris, Washington, or in any country of the world where they can beg, borrow or steal a decent Internet line that is truly anonymous (difficult but not impossible if you have the money and/or knowledge). Most hackers of the upper echelon will hack into an existing connection -yours or mine. They WILL succeed given time.

On-line security and anti-virus systems? Chances are that your firewall producer won't tell you about it's weaknesses. Bad for business. And quite frankly, why should you pay for the mistakes that Microsoft made in their bid for world domination? (If MS are so great why is the European Union fining them and giving them instructions about how to behave in Europe or meet Europe's competition laws (the strictest in the world)?). Why isn't that anti-virus stuff part of Windows? If Windows is so bad? Don't get me wrong, I think Bill Gates is a great guy, ( but serious reservations on that guy Steve B, - time will tell) Neither will your virus software producer tell you when it was struggling because it refused to pay good money to the lady or guy who was doing the really hard work (Symantec went through a very bad time. Their stuff was crashing and scewing up machines for several years, the problems are documented all over the Internet). Problem? I dunno! Maybe the really bright guys/gals had left, my guess, but they will never tell us the truth!. If anyone ever says they will, then ask them for a statemnt from and signed by their lawyers and their accountants (promising to ay equitable damages if their statement prooves incorrect (ie they were lieing. - A legal staement is fine, But under European law (and to a certain extent UK law (but remember that, legally, UK law is subservient to European law now. But in tn the USA, if the company cannot pay then nay judgement has no value in the USA)

Fixing, or doing my best to fix, the kind of problesm that Gary seems to have been involved in has made my careeer! I know enough to know I am in trouble - all the time! I am now nearing 50 years old for the love of the Lord! But I know for certain that with every possible protection I can give tha my network it will always be vulnerable to those who know a LOT more than I do. Years more time to study than I have, and smarter than me,; ....Sob!

Solution? Anything that has our customers ID on it is NOT connected to our LAN (Company network) Customer record s are kept off-line_ Billing is done off-line(not connected to the internet) and sent by off-line (not connected to the internet) by fax to other off-line (not connected to the internet) receivers (not old-fashioned paper faxes, just fax computers).

It is a clunky, old-fashioned solution, but I defy any hacker to break it. Yes Momma USA can read the faxes if it goes through one of their satellites, but we don't care. We trust the US government to keep our data secure.. on their Windows machines.. comprimised by Garry (once) and read regularly by the experts). Oh Shit! Oh God! Another vulnerability. Hmm, OK enrypted faxes. Encrypted with anything the US goverment does NOT approve. Something they have no access to? Russian! OK go-go-go. They can buy the software but probably, through pride, arrogance etc, will not pay the price for the decode engine)).

See, I figure that if ANYONE in ANY (however benevolent) goverment has accesss too our data then soooner or later it will leak

Conclusion?

Gary is being made a case of this for pure politiacal points. He is SICK, an very pitiable ADDICT. The reaons they want him in the US are to get him out of the hands of the UK and European courts,

If you let that happen, you will probably sign hsi death warrant. People die all the time in US gaols.

To hit him hard and to make him an example. That is what they want.To say to people around the world " No matter how stupid you have been or are, we are demosntrating OUR power to take away any rights you may have in your home country, or indeed in Europe (Screw the French, the Germans, they don't count on a world scale, the Brits will do naything we ask, so fucj you if you kl=ive in Mancester, London, Cardiff wherever.) We don't care whhere you live or what government you swear allegiance to. We will get you. Even if wwe are wrong, we will still get you. It is highly unlikely you will survive your US imprisonment. If our torture methode don't get you, then being guilty of un-American activities should ensure that you will not survive your time in our prisons (renowned world-wide as they are for brutality, do you think you have the slightest chance of going home?)

Last point. Thr US DOES pay very expensive people. Probably THE best in the enire world. They will (who knows) perhaps be hacking in to UK goverment records, (again, who knows) and perhaps those of the other European governments involved. You don't believe it? Hey! What would you do if you thought your credibility was at stake; if your budget was almost unlimited? If the opposition in the US had no idea you were involved in such activties, and if you knew that you were so good, that ther wouodnot be the slightest trace of your "work"....

Gary is about as guilty of an international crime as the average kinderegarten kid!

Until yesterday I had never heard his name. But he isn't guilty of anything, excapt for being stupid.

-------------------

At my supreme best in creativity but perhaps my lowest in grammar and spelling. Sorry I just had to get it down somewhere. If not here, a new blogg somewhere.

Sorry, some typos left, but gotta go! Big director guy in tomorrow to tslk security..!

Hmmm it seems most of these posts fall into 2 categories. 1) Gary is an idiot and deserves to dry or 2)America is horrible country with a legal system equal to China, Iran or Russia.

Guess what, both groups are wrong. Now while I'm inclined to think that Gary is indeed an idiot I don;t think that he deserves to fry. He did cause damage to a number of computer systems, though the exact dollar amount is arguable.

As far as the American justice system goes I feel rather certain that our legal system is as good or better than Britains. We have little things like due process, presumption of innocence, the right to a lawyer and the right against self-incrimination.

Current conditions in Guantanamo have no bearing on this case, He is going to the United States not Cuba.

For those of you who still feel that British law is somehow superior to American, do a little reading up on British treatment of suspected IRA terrorists then post.

Good luck Gary, you;re gonna need it.

Sean

"As far as the American justice system goes I feel rather certain that our legal system is as good or better than Britains"

"Current conditions in Guantanamo have no bearing on this case"

Hmmm..... interesting.....

I understand loyalty which is what I suspect most of the folks here are truly about. I also understand that there are a few people that HATE the U.S. no matter what it does. If this guy was Arab and hacked into an English speaking country government system there would be hell to pay!

It amuses me when people said the US should be blamed because of a weak security system, I guess we should blame the store for not having more security guards when someone steals from it.

The guy did the crime, all hackers know that is always a chance to be caught. I just hope he has a fair trial.

"As far as the American justice system goes I feel rather certain that our legal system is as good or better than Britains"

"Current conditions in Guantanamo have no bearing on this case"

Hmmm..... interesting.....

Yup, Guantanamo Bay. Bush's gift to Al-Qeada and America haters everywhere. I am an American and I think Guantanamo is a stain on the US's national honor.

That being said, Gary isn't going to Guantanamo Bay. He is going to be tried in the regular American justice system and if he is convicted he will go to a regular American prison. Neither the justice system nor the prison are nice, but that is another reason not to break the law.

I'm not cold-hearted and I think the poor guy has been through alot already. If he is convicted I hope the judge gives him a lenient sentence.

No Maurice,
I never once said "American Whackos"as I am far from anti American.
You don't know what my nationality is.
My post said:
"I see the US government have wheeled out their crowd of whackos again to target Gary on this website.
Everytime there's a judgement against Gary, out they come right on cue.
They try and browbeat everyone into submission and wonder why it's not working.
Well we're well used to seeing those campaigns of destruction and bully boy tactics when an individual is targeted by the US government and we're becoming just a tad sick of it.
We are not fooled whether you pretend you are British, or talk/spell in cockney slang or Scottish dialect; we know who you are.
Trust & Respect has to be earned and brute force doesn't earn it"

I was referring to people who are "literally" working for or/and on the payroll of the American government.

The statements I refer to as Whacko are pretty obvious for anyone to see.

If you identify with the description of "Whacko" that's your choice; you know what comments you made.
I did not target any particular individual but targeted comments which obviously came from whackos.
There have been some pretty sick comments on here, including those from male rape fantasists. "Whackos by anyone's standard.

Jo

Jo said;

"I see the US government have wheeled out their crowd of whackos again to target Gary on this website.

Says it all for me really!
Im scottish,living in the uk.

Now,when one makes assumptions as you have,as regards the US govt,one usually presents hard facts to back up that claim!..its a standard practise.

Im all ears?...

Imagine if a usa citizen broke into our M.O.D computers!!

Can you imagine the outcry?.

Unlike you,i dont decry the US govt,im young enough to remember the end of the cold war,and wise enough to also remember that we would all be blue eyed,blond germans if it wasnt for the USA saving our ass in ww2.

My point is,though some may see the usa as a world police,and despise them for that,but if they werent in that role,and keeping certian radical factions in check,then i believe the world would be a much more dangerous place.

Heres the bottom line,we all feel sorry for garys stupid actions,basically,and im sure gary knew this from the outset,'YOU DONT MESS WITH GOVT COMPUTERS'...THE STAKES ARE VERY HIGH IF YOU GET CAUGHT.

He got caught,breaking the law,theres no point in having a trail in uk,or usa...WHY?...because gary has fully admitted his guilt in press interviews etc.

He should have kept his trap shut,instead of portraying himself of some sort of cyber jihad warrior.

He has no defence,he has already admitted his criminal guilt....

Now do you guys feel sorry for him because he broke the law?or because he got caught?...

Garys lawyers are in a win-win situation here,raking in fees by the thousands,and im scratching my head here:our man has no defence,hes been sprouting his mouth all over the press,admitting his guilt,yet they want him to have a trail in the uk...wonder why that is?...

Would be a one sided trail wouldnt it...

As i say,i wish gary all the best,but if i was in his situation,id have taken the deal that the usa offered him,he would have been out by now.

Maurice, you're still ignoring that the Wackos I was referring to "WHO ARE" wheeled out by the US government to target certain individuals; are the people who left "Whacko Posts" of which there have been many.

Aas I've already said: Sensible posts or critisisms are not what I regard as Whacko posts but for some reason you still seem to choose to identify with my description of "whacko".

I never targeted a specific post but I did target the Whacko and the male rape fantasist posts.

By the way: Gary has admitted computer intrusion but has always denied causing any damage but the US have to allege damage in order to extradite Gary.

Apparently "the deal" that he was offered could not be guaranteed once he was over in the US; so what kind of deal was that?

Of course Gary shouldn't have trespassed in cyberspace & a sentence in the UK of up to two years would be consistent with the crime.

but the bottom line is that the US government are guilty of having unbelievably poor security and for that there is no excuse. Like it or not. Gary did them a huge favour by exposing the fact that their security was almost non existent.

Thankfully real terrorists hadn't cottoned on to that yet.

Jo

people have got suspended sentences for much worse crimes...rape,molestation of children,even murder.

i think that the US government want to make an example of him.

well, we live in an insane world.

Unlike you,i dont decry the US govt,im young enough to remember the end of the cold war,and wise enough to also remember that we would all be blue eyed,blond germans if it wasnt for the USA saving our ass in ww2.

surely scotsman, you mean the USSR? ;-)

No Scotsman would say "I remember the US saving our "ass" in ww2.

Everyone old enough to remember knows that the US came in at the end of ww2 for their own interests.

The war started in 1932 and the USA joined in 1942, only after Japan attacked Pearl Harbour.

The Americans never flew at night, only the Brits. did that.
I'm not putting the US down and thank God we all fought together in the end but the US government (like most governments) acted in its' own interests.
They had no interest in helping the UK for the ten years that we stood on our own.

Donald

PS: WE are still paying back money to the US for ww2

@ Oliver - apparently the last UK WW2 financial debt repayments were made "on the last working day" of last year 2006.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6215847.stm

The non-financial debts between the Allies can never be repayed.

It is sad to see so many people being turned against the US people by the clumsy incompetence and actual corruption, being displayed by the current US and UK Governments,

Thank you for that fg.
I've just had a history lesson and Donald's facts weren't quite right.

Apparently WW2 started in 1939 and the US came in on Dec. 7th. 1941 (after Pearl Harbour was attacked)just three days after Germany declared war on America.
Only then did the US become involved in the war.
They did not join to "save our ass" but to save their own from the Hitler & the Japanese threat.

I'm now wondering if we will owe the US money for helping them in the illegal invasion of Iraq?

I agree that there are many, many American people who stand up for justice and against opression.
It's the current US & UK government that are making people throughout the world lose sight of this.

This is what I think.
From everything I have read and understood Gary McKinnon will become a scape goat for all the hundreds of cyber attacks that the US government receive on a daily basis. Gary Mckinnon will pay the price for all those genuine terrorists who are able to slip away unnoticed. The fact is he made no attempt to hide his identity.
I have no doubt the 'crime' he has committed must be shared equally by the responsibility of an incompetent US government who are unable to protect their most sensitive information. It could even be argued that a number of individuals have been negligent in doing their job properly, and Gary will pay the price for it.
The bottom line is he will not get a fair trial in a US military court, this we can be certain.
There will be no justice there.

Gary's legal team is awesome. They've focused on exactly what's wrong with the extradition attempt.

I'm sorry that we can't hear from Gary on the Internet, but it seems that he's making a tremendously good fight against injustice; which is where this whole travesty started with Gary's attempt to uncover some truth covered up by the U.S. government that will help impoverished people around the world.

It's apparent that Gary has always known what he's doning. We're with you Gary.

AMERICAS ONLY EMBARASSED BECAUSE OF THEIR BAD SECURITY AND ARE LOOKING TO BLAME SOMEONE! TONY STOP KISSING BUSHES ASS AND FREE GARY FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simply stated, the law is the law. Even I would have loved him to discover something however, the law is the law.

I am totally shocked, why are we even here? I hope Gary is free soon, he has served more than his time that he would have got i this country so for god's sake, refuse the US the extradition adn let him go home now, what ever the happens in the court of this country.

Charlie

I was not even a little shocked after checking some photographs taken by the Nasa Space Station to find areas in the extremely high resolution shots of areas that were obviously edited out. And they were not professionally edited out, but rather a quick paint-type program without any attempt to hide the edit patch . So again what are we hiding here? Microsoft satelites, I don't think Bill Gates would mind...so ok then, proof again that there IS something worth hiding from us. And of couse it is ALWAYS profit motivated - everything that happens of any major impact on this planet is profit motivated.

I saved it as my wallpaper at work so I can look at it every day and think about you Gary. I know there is nothing that I could say and do that would make things better for you... but my thoughts are with you, just want you to know. And there are people like me on this rock that have the intelligence to see through the lies and know that all you ever said is true, and that I pray for you and give you my support for trying to expose the lies on this planet and set us free...

You are my hero