The Home Secretary John Reid has ruled that Gary McKinnon can be extradited to the USA.
This decision comes despite the large number of people who have personally written to the Home Secretary on behalf of Gary.
The next stage in the legal process is an Appeal to the High Court.
TDyl
This is another disgusting decision by the Home Orifice. The sooner those noo-layber idiots are out of office the better.
I still want to know when the united states of americur are going to ratify their side of the extradition treaty. Another case of the u.s. quoting "do as we say not as we do".
Basturds.
Steve
Bye bye Garry. Cuba is suposed to be nice this time of year. Perhaps you will find evidence of 'suppressed technology' there. Bwaaaahhaaa
Prester John
Going down going down going down! What fantastic news! Fifty years in the slammer... thats some SERIOUS thinking time. Oh, and TDyl- nyah nyah nee nyah nyah. I'm soooooooooooo mature (tee hee)
Gareth Thomas
Hi,
I have just sent an email to the home secretary in support of Gary. I would like to say that I do NOT condone hacking especially since I work for an internet company. However what is taking place here is completely wrong, the U.S. has not ratified this treaty and has provided no evidence of what he did. He is a British citizen who allegedly committed an act on British soil. He should be tried here.
This sets a terrible precedent and with the U.S. becoming no paragon of responsible justice (Guantanamo?) I dont believe he has any guarantee of a fair trial.
John Reid and this government are a national disgrace and I for one cannot wait until they are finally gone at the next election.
I just renewed my membership of the Lib Dems tonight!!
Paris
Another stupid decision by Labour, the US must be putting some serious pressure on
Unlucky Gary, fingers and toes crossed for the appeal
Mike Gogan
I'm in total agreement with Gareth Thomas re the extradition treaty with the US. I think hackers and spammers should be locked up for serious time - but only after a fair trial and due process, something which the US government seems to have abandoned. Other than that, not a lot of sympathy here, I'm afraid
mdhatter
Gary may not know it, but he has friends here too.
I'll do my part to see him freed.
Kevin Saunders
When there are real atrocities going on around the planet, you really have to wonder about the mentality of politicians. A showcase trial of a real terrorist - excuse me? I don't recall Gary blowing anyone up or flying planes into buildings and taking thousands of innocent lives. What the hell is wrong with this world?
Jake Long
It has a nasty smell to it, just like everything else that this dirty, disgusting, vindictive, undemocratic, low life dictatorship of a government have ever done since 1997.
I am so sorry that this poor guy has got caught up in the middle of this political mischief and so disgusted that there is not enough of my fellow citizens that have got the courage of their forfathers and will stand up against this opressive, evil government.
Will no-one rid me of this medelsome prime minister?
Ceridwen Devi
Gary should not be extradicted that's for sure.
http://ceridwendevi.blogspot.com/2006/07/gary-mckinnon-can-be-extradicted-to-us.html
Dan
Bastards. You are supposed to look after your own. The government has not. Traitors.
kjpweb
I'm sorry - but it's not a case from accidentally hacking into something.
It's about systematically exploiting the hack, well knowing that it was illegal.
In addition causing damages.
If citizen of another country
hacked into british defense systems and were damaging them - the same people crying Free Gary now were up in arms over it.
You can't have it both ways.
A crook is a crook - and his actions were clearly and obviously illegal. Period.
Not the slightest sympathy here - for what are we protesting next? Spammers, Scammers, Virus producers?
No - hit them where it hurts - because at the end of the day - these people are hurting ALL OF US!
Impressed
Great news. Hopefully he will be tried in a state with the death penalty.
Mike Gravgaard
I think everyone should email Tony Blair on a daily basis.
I've emailed him this:
"Hi Tony,
I would like to draw your attension to this website
www.spy.org.uk/cgi-bin/mt32/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=1616
Could you please explain why YOU and George W Bush can carpet bomb thousands of innocent people in Iraq but a computer hacker can be extradited to the USA for a crime which he committed in the UK which he's yet to be proven guilty for?
Oh I forgot we are no longer innocent until proven guilty anymore, another of your GREAT policy decisions.
As a let down Labour voter I would like to know, why I should trust your leadership or your party in the future?
Please either email a response or mail a reply as I'm interested how you could defend your collegues decision (John Reid).
Thanks in advance.
Mike Gravgaard"
Cal Mac
From what I've read (on the BBC website) this man is guilty of nothing like what the US would claim.
No doubt if this was China trying to extradite him then the most amazing looming spectres would be reported.
Shame on the US for being so sloppy and being so angry at being found out!
Glen
Hackers deserve the harshest of puninshments.
Gary mate, prison is not that bad, there's always shower time to look forward to.
fg
@ kjpweb - British military networks do not suffer from the same criminal negligence and senior managerial incompetence as the US Military ones did.
We would expect anyone accused of hacking into British military networks to be given a fair trial, and to have the chance to challenge evidence not just allegations, brought against them. If they were caught and arrested overseas, then we would expect them to face trial in that local jurisdiction.
@ Impressed - you need to read up a bit on Extradition law and on the background to this case (see the links on the main page). If there was any question of a death penalty, then there would be no extradition. It is illegal to allow the extradition of any European Union resident to face the death penalty. That is claimed not to be the case, but there are no written guarantees about possible Military Tribunals.
@ Mike Gravgaard - unfortunately Tony Blair is a self-confessed computer illiterate, so he will never see your emails.
@ Glen - Gary deserves whatever punishment a British court of law sentences him to, if he is found guilty after a fair trial, under United Kingdom laws, no more, no less.
Your allusion to prison rape has nothing to do with justice, and is presumably one of your own fantasies.
cp
Regarding the politics, if the people of the country are fed up enough, they can call an early election, upto you lot in the UK. Gary shouldnt be extradited despite what that dimwit John Reid says. The government fails to remember that they work for the people, not the other way round, and its about time they understood that. Btw, on a personal note to Gary, when asked if he saved any images, he said "no" because it was a java applet. What about Prnt Screen? Press that, goto mspaint and paste the image in. Save it and broadcast it for the entire world to see what a bunch of losers the US Government is.
Squall
This is just plain rediculous. The damages the US government are reporting to their systems is just plain unrealistic. Not only is he unlikely to have deleted accounts, critical systems etc... but if he DID, then the costs reach nothing like those suggested. Thats what backups are for.
Of course, given their record, I wouldn't put it past the US military to have a complete lack of backups and/or on-hand staff.
Also, considering the scrutiny the extradition treaty is under at the moment, surely ALL extraditions should be on hold?
As far as I can see, the US is turning into the new Nazi party. Lessee, we've got illegal elections, illegal invasions, illegal prisons... whats next?
Harry Potter
It doesnt matter what you do, he will be extradited.
He should start spilling the beans on what he found, should loud enough about it and maybe someone will listen.
However, sorry to say mate I think your fucked.
Pip
Gary you poor sod, we truly are all puppets mate. You got well and truly hung out to dry, sufficient to say you have been sent to the headmasters office and lets hope you put half the library down your trousers. I did like your story and your interviews, your story is quite plausible and in fact in the scheme of things quite entertaining, however you made your bed I suppose the time has come to lie in it.
Note to self; being a Brit no longer means having a leg to stand on, well maybe a wooden leg well within reach of Woody Woodpecker whenever he feels hungry.
I have a safe trip to Guantanamo mate, I hope you like orange. I have a feeling you will be modeling the latest summer fashions...
Tough break.
Stu
Fortunately for Gary the American judiciary would still appear to be able to resist political interference and has been known to come to decisions that do not follow American policy.
Given that America has tried to bring other hackers to "justice" and been laughed out of court, I would say things don't look all bad. To be able to convict Gary they will have to prove EACH count of $5,000 worth of damage to their PCs. During the trial the American military's lack of security will make them a laughing stock. To be able to get access to a US Military PC via a blank administrator password and then be able to install a 3rd party remote access tool onto that PC - that is not hacking - its laughable.
They can't possibly be stupid enough to let this go to trial.
Good luck with whatever happens Gary.
Lucy
I think a lot of the very recent emails are part of a campaign by the US government to put Gary down and to try and shift opinion against him.
The US government are guilty of having no passwords and no firewalls, ten years after Mathew Bevan was accused of virtually the same crime.
Fortunately Mathew Bevan was tried in his own country, in the UK and was not imprisoned because the US could not provide the evidence.
Now the US don't have to provide Prima Facie evidence; we just hand our citizens over and if the US government says Jump!!!
Tony Blair does just that, because he is desperate to please his masters.
The US are lucky it was Gary who discovered how pathetically poor the internet security is on military machines. They should thank him for the wake up call but as they didn't secure their computers systems ten years after Mathew Bevan was accused of breaching them; perhaps they just don't know how.
I wonder how the people in the US are going to feel when they find this out?
How many heads of state or heads of military security are going to be prosecuted and sent to Guantanamo for putting their citizens at risk by having no passwords and no firewalls?
There are so many lies told by governments.
Watch the "Loose Change" video which Michael Meacher wanted to show in the House Of Commons but was banned from doing so.
It pointed out that at the time of 9/11, mobile phones did not work on aeroplanes, as the technology was not around for this to happen.
Yet we hear what are supposed to be frantic calls from victims on the aeroplanes, talking to relatives on mobile phones!!!
This was impossible at the time 9/11 happened, as mobile phones would not have worked on the aeroplanes. Only very recent technology has made this possible.
So watch "Loose Change" and tell me who should be prosecuted in the US and how come none of our newsmen and women are not pointing this out but are just going along with the propaganda and why was Michael Meacher refused permission to screen the "Loose Change" video.
How many at the top are complicit of hideous actions, either by design or through fear of retribution.
Gary is extremely small fry and did not damage anything; it's just that the US had no back up systems to rely on once they shut their own computer systems down.
Any business has back up systems as a matter of course.
Gary does not spam people; he made no money; this was a victimless crime and the US government should be very glad that Gary brought to their attention how bad their "non security" was.
Gary was searching for info on Free energy and he made the mistake of leaving a few political notes behind, such as: that the US government were guilty of state sponsored terrorism.
Well whether rightly or wrongly, half of the planet believes this but this is why the US want an example made of Gary.
They are hugely embarrassed by their own failings and they want Gary to pay the price for their embarrassement.
Lucille
John
This is completely wrong. If the US government are too damned stupid to employ some decent techies then how is that Garys fault? They should be thanking him! Is there a fund to sponser Garys legal fund? He's going to need some serious cash!
ian_N.IRELAND
In response to 'kjpweb's comment: U obviosly live in a black/white world with no grays. Everyone messes up sometime- including u and me and hackers and PM.'s starting illegal wars. the real crooks are the ones producing spam or viruses- or waring for their place in history. Gary should plead extradition would be against his human rights- sending to a country whose administration flouts Geneva convention and uses torture. Good luck Gary.
Paul
let me get this straight - he went sniffing around US military networks just *after* 9/11 and he wants our sympathy ?!?!
What an idiot - I hope he gets what he deserves !
Hack the planet, eh d00d ?!?
LOL !!!!!!!!
R0bster
>
So if you accidentaly left your car unlocked - and someone stole it - you'd be quite happy and not want the thief punished ????
Let's face it - the guy broke the law - admitted it on TV - and now he has to go face up to the consequences.
That's life - as someone else pointed out - if this had been a russian hacker poking about in the British Defence computers there'd be calls for a lynching - no difference.
See you in 20 years gary - at least you might make some money out of a book when you get out ;)
sonia
a crook is a crook - what? well perhaps they ought to be focusing on the real crooks - aka those who keep information secret! as someone said, there's plenty of stuff to be going around arresting people for - let Gary be. and if they want to make a fuss, make it over here. don't let the americans get jurisdiction - there is no justice over there as we can ALL SEE>
Mark
Laughability factor of thsi case = 100%
why not try chasing and catchingm terrorists, murderers, rapists etc instead of the guy who has shown up the US Government and its laczidasical security techniques
sonia
hi everyone - please help get some attention for gary's situtaion and 'digg this' story ...
http://digg.com/world_news/UK_Home_Secretary_rules_that_Gary_McKinnon_can_be_extradited_to_the_USA
tom
I think you should face punishment for activities you knew to be illegal but i do think you are going to be very harshly treated and the punishment will far outweigh the crime.
Good luck whatever happens.
Ade
Only Digg members will be able to see this until it becomes public. But Dugg anyway!
Craig
Good to see the government can come to a quick decision on a computer geek who breaks the law in another country, and extradite accordingly..... Much the same as I’m sure they would do instantly, if a hook handed, self confessed terrorist, supporter of race hate and prone to teaching susceptible youths the benefits of world unrest, would be dealt with. Ah, maybe not. Just seven years.
Gary obviously and knowingly committed a crime, but a trial in this country is surely the only fair outcome?
Tim
I agree that he needs to be punished but a potential 50 years! You could rape and murder children and get away with less than that!
The US are totally over-reacting and instead of trying to improve security so this doesn't happen again, they are using Gary as an example to stop anyone else trying to do the same.
Verity
Just when I thought my faith in the British system could sink no lower, another nail in the coffin of our rights to fair justice, is hammered down. Just more bowing down to an already dominant US Government. No one deserves to be subject to the unfair US Justice system let alone a British citizen whose crime was committed on UK soil. This screams wrong, so very, very wrong.
Dewi
The US Government would have done better to bury this and allow Gary to assist with tightening up their security.
The total injustice of this case and the revelations about lax security (plus published IP addresses) are an open invitation to hackers out there who could do some REAL damage. (Not that I would condone this in any way)
Guy
Gary,
You have been scapegoated and treated as an example.
An example for what happens to illegal hackers.
What you did was wrong and I am surprised that you never thought that you would not get caught. Mind you most people comitting crimes do so thinking they can get away with it.
I reckon two things could happen:
The FBI will probably employ you as a consultant hacker.
Or
You will go to jail.
Neither sounds particularly great to me.
m
Simple, just dont vote for this labour scum in any election. They have tricked you all in to thinking they are from "working class" backgrounds, yep right, look at Tony Blairs £14million pound house in London. Most of them are educated at top establishments. They are just like the tories, only difference is they are better at handling the press. But that's easy if you are best mates with Rupert Murdoch (the one but last home secretary - David Blunkett was having dinner with him the night he was sacked !). This is about Great Britain having to adhere to United States of Arseholes policy, because we signed an agreement during world war II.
JJ
I'm afraid I don't have any sympathy for Gary... by accessing US military systems he must have known he was risking facing US justice. He broke the law - send him to face his crime!
Luke
I think they should extradite Gary and employ him to sort out their puppet IT policies and security. No root passwords, dear oh dear. shame he's not being tried over here in england, he would only get 2 hours community service.
good luck Gary on your appeal, hope you win!
Jonneh
The punishment is harsh, but in my experience the best way to stop your hand getting burned is by not putting it in the fire in the first place.
What did you honestly think was going to happen if you got caught?
Squall
A lot of people here are dismissively saying things along the lines of "You did the crime, now serve the time..."
What these people have failed to notice is that Gary is being accused of crimes HE DID NOT COMMIT. Yes, he has admitted to being in those systems, but the damages, as far as anybody can tell, are entirely bogus.
...and to the person who asked about the unlocked car... I personally wouldn't be stupid enough to leave my car unlocked and unattended. I certainly wouldn't prosecute someone if they got into my car, looked around it a little, then got out again.
There is a lot of support for Gary. I hope that it will continue REGARDLESS of the outcome of this case. Just because we're over this side of the pond doesn't mean we can't protest against things happening on the other side.
The world is in contact with each other now. Countrys, nationalities, governments... They all need a review. We should be a planet by now, not a loose collection of countrys. America, with it's paranoia, over-patriotism and mass-xenophobia, is the one in the way of this, not the so-called "Terrorist" nations.
Ronnie
So I went out last night, left my front door on the latch... didnt use the mortice. When I got home, I found someone had been in to my house, looked at my stuff including private letters and business papers. Then they left. I called the police. They found the person - fingerprints matched. He admitted the crime. DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD BE LET OFF. No he belongs in Prison. He did it he confessed now lock him up and throw away the key to discourage others! Sorry Harsh but Real.
B M
I recall a Sunday Paper broadsheet interview detailing Gary's reasons for his hacking. I believe his portrayal of a few months of routing around (stoned) unearthing topics on the USA's secret Space programs must have been increasingly addictive. And of a desire to go further and find more. The information unearthed has always been kept from the public scrutiny despite American Tax payers unknowingly funding these programs. A desire to find more....self control (on Gary's part) would have been hard to self administer. I feel Gary has made the first step in bringing some of these black projects into the publics radar.
Up to 40 Years in prison for his troubles? This seems very hard to stomach.
Norbyt
It is quite pathetic. Although I know what Gary did is wrong, he also found a bunch of obvious security holes - in some respects, he deserves a medal for finding these. I doubt Gary has been working for North Korea or someone and selling information.
The US is definitely playing this up and making him a scapegoat. The alleged damages made to the infrastructure are most definitely improvements needed to be made, subsequent to Gary finding the holes - because he’d found it so easy to hack? The cost of this should be borne by US Military with a consultancy fee paid to Gary.
I wish all the best for Gary during the next two weeks and hope he’ll win his appeal.
Alex From The U.S.
Gary, you have my support. You shouldn't even be on trail, and this site shouldn't exist. Yes, government sites are notorious when it comes to poor security. And it's sad that because the government can't admit their own pitfalls and learn from their mistakes, they have to strike out in anger. If anything, they should offer you an IT job of some kind.
John
Anyone got his home address? We could "pop" round while he's in the US...just to look of course...if the door locks are not brilliant it's not my fault. Jonneh, would you take action if someone climbed through a window into your house "just for a look"?
Bradley
Gary, it appears you made a very very grave mistake. Now its time to own up to it, face the music, and sit in a nice American prison, where you get...
3 good sqaure meals a day, tv, and a buddy named nasty nate.
I wish you the best of luck, and let this be a lesson to all the other morons who think its acceptable to hack into government computers of any nation.
lensman
Seems to me that there are two distinct issues here.
Firstly, Mr McKinnon did something stupid and illegal and got caught. The getting caught bit is a bummer, and he should probably do some time on that basis, silly 'curiosity is not a crime' defence notwithstanding. As I believe someone already said. "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
This should be a mantra that all 'hackers' repeat to themselves whenever they engage in ilegal activities. We are well passed the point now where this kind of thing can be considered a harmless game by those in positions of authority, and anyone who believes otherwise is clearly deluding themselves.
On the other hand, the USSA is clearly overreacting by labelling him a terrorist and threatening 50 years in chokey, and the pathetic bending over backwards of the UK government to what is obvioulsy a hysterical and opressive foreign regime is demeaning to UK soverignty, and I abhor it. It's about time that Tony & co stopped acting as though we were the 51st state of Amerikkka and learned to show some backbone. What are they going to do, nuke us ? Pathetic. Reid is quite clearly a scotch soaked cuntbubble, who'd have thought we'd miss 'Dangerous' Dave Blunket eh ?
You are going to do some time, solo mate, and thats a bitch. I just hope it isn't as bad as the posturing suggests. As someone already said, keep an eye out for the book deal. Take notes, keep a journal, with any luck it will see you right when the evil fuckin' empire lets you see the light of day again.
Lets hope the EFF get involved once you get stateside.
Good luck, and godpseed.
sonia
some of the analogies given here are completely crap. In any case, if we knew that the US would actually give him a fair trial that would be one thing. But we know they won't! And the US Military - oh boy.
Dan
It's depressing we have so many self obsessed righteous morons in this country.
"if this had been a russian hacker poking about in the British Defence computers"
I would LAUGH! What's this, don't you like Russian people or something? Are you RACIST? Of course it would be different if it was a Russian government agent - but not a civillian having a poke around.
"So I went out last night, left my front door on the latch..."
Somebody read your private papers? OH MY GOD! What do you have to hide? YOU MUST BE A TERRORIST IF YOU HIDE THINGS!
Ronnie, I think you should be locked up for being so idiotic (sorry! Harsh but Real!).
Let's hope the American judiciary has sense as Stu suggests.
JNF
Here's my penny's worth;
Hackers are as prone to egotisim and arrogance as anyone who has skills way above their peers. They claim good intent but why do they behave in a secretive manner. Surely they'd contact their target openly and say " hey, you've got a problem with... "
Damage to somebodys property is… damage to somebodys property. You should be held to account.
Making examples of offenders should serve to prevent, I thought we’d all agreed prevention is better than cure. Cures are peddled by the exploitative, prevention is advocated by the benevolent.
At what point did he think he could interfere with the US MILITARY and not incurr their terrible wrath ?
The liberalisim some factions in the West are displaying is interpreted as weakness by our enemies. Confidence is halfway to victory.
Sometimes bad people win.
Daniel
I'm in full support of Gary's trial taking place in the United Kingdom.
It's very shameful for Home Secretary John Reid to sign the extradition on the 4th of July. It's almost as if he just signed it as a present for the United States Government.
July 4th, A symbol of freedom? More like a growing symbol for corruption and tyranny.
Oh how the founding fathers would roar at the top of their lungs if unfair justice is being committed.
Then again, American police are being told the founding fathers are 'Terrorists' by FEMA and the DHS.
I fully back Sir Menzies Cambell and David Davies in getting rid of the UK/US Extradition Act of 2003.
How can this be allowed when it goes against Article 7 of the Human Rights act is beyond belief.
Good Luck Gary; If you mysteriously disappear I'm sure the media will have fun ending John Reid's career as Home Secretary.
Deviant
[quote] Great news. Hopefully he will be tried in a state with the death penalty. [unquote]
Really? What a perfect example of a human being you are sir! American by any chance? If so, why don't you fuck off, either that or go sign up for a nice tour of duty in Iraq...... wankers.......
JC
He did the crime. He was stupid and to be fair he should pay for it in a US prison. If he didn't want to go there he should have made the choice and not have done the hacking. Bet you boys wouldn’t be supporting him if he had been downloading and spreading paedophile pictures in the USA would you....
Siderite
Maybe if you hadn't have transformed this UFO geek into a national hero, the US would have let it slip. But now, how can the Smiths in the US Intelligence ignore the British Neo?
I know a lot of you want to be more than you are, but don't make McKinnon more than he is, especially when it's not in his advantage.
As for the extradition, the UK government is practically subordinate to the US one. Want to do something? Change that!
Mike
Having just lost several hundred files in My Documents (and yes I do backup regularly) because someone thought it his obligation to test Microsoft's security I have no sympathy whatever for anyone who causes damage. I liken him to a thief who blames his victim for leaving his back door open. If someone were to disable his car then blame him for not knowing how to fix it would he say "yeh, ok, I shouldn't be driving then". Come on you geeks - grow up - think of the common man who doesn't want the fruit of your egos.
Olivier
This is a sad day for the British legal system. Besides the fact that Gary did hack their systems, there is not the slightest evidence of a serious threat posed to the US national security. This guy is a scapegoat for US Army network admins who are not competent enough to secure them in the first place. Saying Gary is a hacker is a massive overstatement. If a real hacker wanted to do anything really damaging at the time, he could have.
After Blair, it is now the UK legal system that is sold to the US...
Squall
Analogy after analogy fails to help. You cannot compare this case to someone breaking into your home, or stealing your car, and especially not to someone spreading child porn. It's a comepletely different kettle of fish.
Gary did not break into somebodys personal property, learn about their lives, take some momentos then leave. He also did not steal your car.
What he did was go looking for some evidence of what we all know - that the technologies we require to further the human race (ie renewable energy) are owned by oil companies, which in turn are owned by the bigwigs like GWB Snr. - and thus will never happen fast enough.
Take hybrid cars. An advance? No. A cop-out. We don't need the fossil fuel engine in there at all, it's jus that the oil companies are charging too much for batteries.
In any case, Gary is guilty of hacking into a US military system, yes, however, seeing as no actual hacking was involved (Sorry, but no matter what you say, its not hacking if you just type the word 'admin' into the username box - its bad management), he is being unfairly accused of damages he did not cause.
Miffed
Speaking as a former network administrator, I hope they lock him up and throw away the key. He has absolutely nobody else to blame but himself. Well, he is nothing more than a criminal and is getting his just desserts. Serves him right.
Bill
Screw Gary, freakin low life hacker. If he's so afraid of prison he should not have hacked into anything.
Andrew
Many people here seem to be putting hackers on the same level as spammers and virus makers.
There is a difference.
Hackers are non-malicious people who explore the security of systems out of curiosity, not to cause damage.
Without hackers, the internet would be a pile of junk.
Bear in mind that a hacker can also be an expert programmer, who can efficiently code applications without too much planning.
Here is a list of people from this list who are too heavily influenced by the media, and should learn to get their facts straight before pushing their blotched faces into areas they no nothing about:
Paris:
"I think hackers and spammers should be locked up for serious time"
Why should someone be locked up for programming or exposing security holes?
Spammers are a lot different from hackers. Spammers act out of greediness; hackers do not make money from being curious.
You are a retard.
For the next person, I need to quote his whole post. That person is "Dan".
"I'm sorry - but it's not a case from accidentally hacking into something. It's about systematically exploiting the hack, well knowing that it was illegal."
Really? Two things here:
1)Would you mind telling me how you can exploit a hack? A hack is exploiting a security hole. I really can't see how you can exploit a hack. It's like saying "I think I'll eat an eat".
2) Sonce when was it possible to "accidently" exploit a security hole?
I can picture the situation:
"Ooops, I appear to have accidently hit my keyboard in a funny way, and it's just opened up a browser and injected an XSS exploit into a webpage. Deary me, what a coincidence.
I don't think so....
Verdict: Retard. Big retard. Go away and learn something, and stop annoying people.
"In addition causing damages."
How the hell did he cause damages? He looked at a bloody computer. He didn't cause any damage.
He opened up files on a computer. Do you cause damage when you open a document? No, you don't. Neither did he.
"If citizen of another country
hacked into british defense systems and were damaging them - the same people crying Free Gary now were up in arms over it."
You changed tenses from condition to past tense, and you don't make sense; go back to school.
People will be hacking into British defence systems all the time. Do you really think Britain's defence system is uber secure?
And if they did break in, they wouldn't cause damage.
"You can't have it both ways."
No, you can't. So why don't you make up your mind between being a retard, or a person overly influenced by the media.
"A crook is a crook"
Yes, a crook is a crook.
But a hacker is not a crook.
"and his actions were clearly and obviously illegal. Period."
The law also states that it is illegal to drive a Hackney Cab [aka a black taxi for idiots like you] without a bale of hay and a sack of oats inside it.
Just because it's against the law, doesn't make it wrong.
"Not the slightest sympathy here"
That's because you know nothing.
Zilch.
Zero.
"for what are we protesting next? Spammers, Scammers, Virus producers?"
No, why would you even consider bring a hacker down to this level,
Just because you are obviously:
1) Severely jealous of his intelligence; or
2) Heavily influenced by the media; or
3) Completely retarded;
Doesn't make him a criminal.
Next idiot:
Cal Mac:
"Hackers deserve the harshest of puninshments."
Why?
Do you even know what a hacker is?
John:
"I wish you the best of luck, and let this be a lesson to all the other morons who think its acceptable to hack into government computers of any nation."
Everyone is entitled to curiosity, and just because of your limited scope and grasp of life, you do not have to attempt to lump your title on others.
The fact is, he was an extremely intelligent and curious figure, and did no damage. Depending on severty, hacking into other governments isn't necessarily a bad thing.
In Gary's case, he did no damage.
Another post by the infamous "Dan":
"They claim good intent but why do they behave in a secretive manner."
Secretive? As far as I'm aware, he wasn't charging the US public taxes to make insecure security programs that were protecting secretive data.
And are you completely stupid?
Do you want him to go into an internet cafe and stick a sign up saying, 'watch me hack into the US'.
He probably didn't want the publicity, and the money.
JC:
Um, do you know anything? Anything at all?
"Maybe if you hadn't have transformed this UFO geek into a national hero, the US would have let it slip."
What a retarded statement.
The reason he has come to the public's eye [National hero? eh? Where'd you here that?], is because the US wouldn't let it sleep. Retard.
Siderite:
"Having just lost several hundred files in My Documents (and yes I do backup regularly) because someone thought it his obligation to test Microsoft's security I have no sympathy whatever for anyone who causes damage."
They didn't have to test it.
It's well known that just about any Microsoft system is vulnerable to attack.
The solution; don't use Microsoft.
Mike:
"If a real hacker wanted to do anything really damaging at the time, he could have."
No, this is a common misconception, popularised by the media. Hackers do not have to do anything malicious. Why don't you learn something apart from what the media shoves down your throat?
Let me know if I missed anyone.
Andrew <-- Yes, Andrew..
I made the above post.
My name is Andrew, not Bill.
Who's idea was it to randomly make up names for every reply?
Jose
Anyone who thinks that Gary should serve the ludicrouis sentence proposed, or the death sentence, as someone who posted suggested, is obviously a fanatic and has a mindset akin to a nazi, much like GW Bush.
Whoever posted their joy of seeing an alleged hacker being punished in such an out of proportion way, obviously has some serious mental problems and they're probably as extreme and out of control as GW Bush.
It's very obvious when certain people who post are doing so on behalf of the US government. Why bother coming onto the Free Gary Website; because you're trying to build up feeling against Gary.
We in the UK cannot extradite an American citizen without providing Prima Facie evidence, yet the American government can take any of our citizens at will, as they have no need to provide any evidence, due to Tony Blair signing a one sided extradition treaty with America, who will not sign their half of the "treaty" because it's againsat their constitution; so how can it be called a treaty.
Gary denies causing any damage; he had no need to hack, as he could just log on because the security was so abismall.
When are the people in the US military and the US government going to be prosecuted for their total failure in protecting their systems; thereby putting their citizens at risk.
Gary has every right to be tried in the UK, his own country.
If an American was downloading adult pornography from Iran; he wouldn't be extradited to Iran to have his hands cut off; he would be subject to his own countries laws.
Gary was told by the UK police that he would get Community service but they decided not to prosecute him.
America suggesting sixty odd years just shows what nutters are running the US government at the moment.
Murderers and rapists get a fraction of this ludicrous sentence and anyone clamouring for Gary's blood, is a total extremist with nazi attitudes.
Gary did not damage computers, he did not send viruses, he did not spam anyone, he did not hurt anyone.
Wish I could say that about the countries (including the US) that have murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, including children.
Go and tell a real terrorist that he shouldn't walk through an open door and that there are laws to keep him out.
Do you really know how stupid that sounds?
The world's superpower can't secure it's systems, has no firewall (really no firewall!!!) and no passwords. We all use passwords, don't we? unless we're seriously stupid.
Stop trying to bully the world America; stop trying to be the world's police, stop trying to destroy anyone or any country who dares to disagree with you and you said the UK were imperialists.
The US government is no longer seen as the good guys, they are seen as the bullies of the world who ride roughshod over everyone and have no compassion for anyone.
Were your soldiers prosecuted for the disgusting abuse inflicted on prisoners (of war)
The US government are extremests and are acting like nazis; you have no sense of proportion in any respect.
Destroy, destroy, destroy, and love every minute of it. Is this the new policy, or the new world order.
For Gods sake; get a sense of proportion.
Jose
Andrew
Ahhhh....I need to revise the names on my post. It appears the names are under the posts rather than above the post. I think a design change is necessary. :-)
Changes to the names above.
Paris --> Mike Grogan
Dan [1] --> kjpweb
Cal Mac --> Glen
John --> Bradley
Dan [2] --> JNF
JC --> Siderite
Siderite --> Mike
Mike --> Olivier
I appologise for inconvenience.
>!"£$%^&*()_+|\,./?;'#:@~[]{}-=`1234567890
body bagger
"He is a British citizen who allegedly committed an act on British soil."
"Allegedly?" McKinnon has admitted to illegally logging into US government computer systems. He has admitted to have committed this crime.
And now the whining about his punishment begins. "We shouldn't send him off to the mean, ol' US because they don't have proper courts." Funny, but I seem to remember from my civics lessons that the US courts are fashioned after the British court system.
Now Brits are demanding that the UK refuse to give McKinnon up to US justice. I'll remember that when the UK starts putting pressure on the US to crack down on IRA sympathizers in New England.
What? You want the Administration to track US citizens who ship money and arms to a terrorist organization that has killed countless British citizens? But then you have a hissy fit when one of your own citizens gets caught red-handed breaking US national security laws. Talk about double standards.
The security on these computer systems was poor. But that is no excuse for McKinnon's illegal entry. Would the fact that someone leaves their car unlocked for a few minutes while they pop into the store be a good reason to steal their car stereo?
The muddled morals of the European mind never cease to amaze me.
Squall
@BodyBagger "The security on these computer systems was poor. But that is no excuse for McKinnon's illegal entry. Would the fact that someone leaves their car unlocked for a few minutes while they pop into the store be a good reason to steal their car stereo?"
You have clearly failed to read any of the posts above your own. You also fail to notice the fact that Gary is being accused of crimes OTHER than those he admitted to, and finally you fail to realise that while the US courts were once based on UK standards, that has been changing ever since, as these things do.
Basically, BodyBagger, your comment was 0% substance, 100% failure.
body bagger
(snip irrelevant blather)
"Basically, BodyBagger, your comment was 0% substance, 100% failure."
Wow, with such a stunning rebuke as yours, how can I go on?
But I will..
You see, he is charged with criminal trespass and destruction of government property. Other charges will follow. From the BBC website:
"Mr McKinnon has never denied that he wandered around the computer networks of a wide number of US military institutions between February 2001 and March 2002. Mr McKinnon was arrested in November 2002."
Face it, stupid. McKinnon broke US law and must stand to answer for it. The US system still resembles the UK courts in that the State must prove its case before conviction. If there are other charges (terrorism or other national security-related offenses), the Administration will have to PROVE that Mr McKinnon's admitted actions risked the lives of US citizens. That is a pretty high standard to meet.
All of your posturing has produced not one thoughtful rebuttal of my previous remarks. Lets see if you have anything other than hot air to offer on this balmy Friday afternoon.
body bagger
One more thing. Lest you think that McKinnon "innocently stumbled" into a government computer system, here is the exact language that someone attempting to access a US government computer is confronted with:
"NOTICE TO USERS
This is a Federal computer system and is the property of the United States Government. It is for authorized use only. Users (authorized or unauthorized) have no explicit or implicit expectation of privacy.
Any or all uses of this system and all files on this system may be intercepted, monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to authorized site, US Federal Agency, and law enforcement personnel, as well as authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign. By using this system, the user consents to such interception, monitoring, recording, copying, auditing, inspection, and disclosure at the discretion of authorized site or US Federal Agency personnel.
Unauthorized or improper use of this system may result in administrative disciplinary action and civil and criminal penalties."
Again, from the BBC website:
"However, he [McKinnon] has always maintained that he was motivated by curiosity.."
Given the warning that he received before trespassing on US government property, McKinnon's claims of innocent curiosity are hopelessly and completely busted. He knew what he was doing and was warned of the consequences.
Now he must face justice.
Jose
You missed the point bigtime.
The IRA dropped boms on people and blew up men, women and children and the UK can't extradite any IRA person from America because America hasn't and won't sign this excuse for a "treaty".
America won't extradite any of it's own citizens without Prima Facie evidence being provided but expects the UK to do exactly that.
We're supposed to be equal and to have equal rights as US citizens; or do you think US citizens are superior and should have more rights?
Gary is not a terrorist, did not make money and denies causing any damage but the US government waited until the UK government signed the treaty that allows UK citizens to be extradited to America without any Prima Facie evidence having to be presented.
Why aren't you signing the "treaty" America? scared you'll be subjected to the same unfair treaty as we are?
Why aren't the Us soldiers who commited terrible abuse on prisoners in Iraq, extradited to Iraq to stand trial and be subjected to their punishment.
Our legal system is nothing like America's, fortunately we've moved on.
Do we have the death sentence? No!
Do we keep people locked up for thirty years and then execute them afterwards? No
Do we lock up housewifes for sixty years because their husband has done a dodgy business deal? No! but this was done to a British woman by an American court. Ask the Liberal MP's about it.
This woman's family live in the UK and she is locked up for sixty years in America.
Do we ask for the death penalty for mentally ill people because they lied? No!
Do we get convicted criminals to give evidence against people we want prosecuted, by promising the convicted criminals lighter sentences? No!
Because what convicted criminal who has been sentenced to many years in prison, won't lie about someone else in order to get early release? Not many.
So what kind of justice do you now have in the US?
Human Rights are breached at every turn by the US and now Tony Blair wants to get rid of the Human Rights Act, to follow in GW Bush's footsteps.
Most people in the world believe that the US government are no longer the good guys but are the bullies and extremists of the world but everyone is too scared to say it out loud, including our newsmen and women, in case they get sacked or persecuted.
Everyone is afraid of the USA.
Well there are now a lot of good people in the USA, many of whom are supporting Gary and they are sick of what's happened and is happening to their country.
If the US elections aren't rigged by GW Bush's brother Jed next time around; I think you'll see that the democrats will be elected.
The good people of America will not be happy when they find out that their military security is about the worst in the world; particularly when so many of their son's are dying in Iraq, in an illegal war.
and if Gary is extradited, the good people of the UDSA will hear loudly and clearly what has gone on, whether or not they shut Gary away.
There are too many of us who are very upset and angry about the out of proportion nonsense that is happening to one little computer guy, for you to keep us all silent.
Jose
Jose
Make sure you put up your notice to users about the federal computer system for all thev real terrorists to see and I'm sure they'll oblige by not trespassing.
Do you realise how stupid this sounds.
You have to take the blame for not having any security in your own systems.
You're damn lucky it was Gary who trespassed and not a real terrorist.
Secure your systems for God's sake, before someone who really is dangerous, causes some real damage.
Stop picking on a computer nerd, it makes you look bad.
And naming yourself body bagger, really doesn't do you any favours.
Ok, you're the biggest, you're the strongest and you've conquered the world!... but you've lost the minds and the hearts.
and that's sad.
Jose
Andrew
@Podgy Badger, a.k.a. Body Bagger:
"Given the warning that he received before trespassing on US government property"
How do you know he read the message?
He used computer programs. In case you don't know, they automate processes.
If he did read it, it would only have strengthened his curiosity.
"You see, he is charged with criminal trespass and destruction of government property. Other charges will follow."
Yes, exactly. These are not what he did. He admitted to trespassing, not destruction.
He "wandered around".
Next time you wander around a forest, think about what it would be like if you were then extradited to the US for charges for destroying the forest.
There's a big difference between destruction and wandering.
Don't be so ignorant.
body bagger
"America won't extradite any of it's own citizens without Prima Facie evidence being provided but expects the UK to do exactly that."
The charges stemming from McKinnon's computer trespass have already been handed down. The prima facie case was established during the Grand Jury process. That information was transmitted to the UK Home Secretary upon request for extradition.
What prima facie evidence are you referring to? The terrorism charges? He hasn't been charged for any terrorist activity (yet).
"We're supposed to be equal and to have equal rights as US citizens; or do you think US citizens are superior and should have more rights?"
Nope. Next question.
"Gary is not a terrorist,"
You know him personally?
"..did not make money.."
And you have evidence of this?
"...and denies causing any damage..."
Everyone in prison claims innocence.
"Why aren't you signing the "treaty" America? scared you'll be subjected to the same unfair treaty as we are?"
Can you say "Red Herring"? McKinnon isn't being extradited for terrorism charges. He is being extradited because of his criminal trespass of US government computers. Unless you have been brain dead for the last four years, McKinnon has already admitted to this activity. I'd say the prima facie case was established by McKinnon himself.
"Why aren't the Us soldiers who commited terrible abuse on prisoners in Iraq, extradited to Iraq to stand trial and be subjected to their punishment."
Who said they won't be? Their courts have just started operating again. What does this have to do with McKinnon again?
"Our legal system is nothing like America's, fortunately we've moved on."
This and the other irrelevant points you have raised have not provided one iota of defense for Mr McKinnon's criminal activity, have they? Are you arguing that Mr McKinnon had a RIGHT to trespass on a sovereign nation's property?
My, my, my.... The Brits certainly have moved on in their idea of moral behavior, haven't they?
"So what kind of justice do you now have in the US?"
One just just like yours - imperfect but fair. I agree with you on the issue of the death penalty, but again, what does this have to do with McKinnon's guilt?
"Human Rights are breached at every turn by the US and now Tony Blair wants to get rid of the Human Rights Act, to follow in GW Bush's footsteps."
Take this up with your local MP. I didn't vote for nor do I support Mr Bush. So you are shouting to your little echo chamber here.
And nothing you've just written absolves Mr McKinnon of his guilt, does it?
body bagger
BB>>"Given the warning that he received before trespassing on US government property"
"How do you know he read the message?"
I guess I don't know if he did or not. I guess he may be completely stupid after all. Perhaps you should offer your legal services.
"He used computer programs. In case you don't know, they automate processes."
Yep, but the page I reproduced for you requires user acknowledgement before you can proceed. He would have to code the correct response into his automated scripts to bypass the login warning.
But hey, stick with the stupidity angle. You just may have something.
"If he did read it, it would only have strengthened his curiosity."
If he read it, then his ability to claim that he didn't understand his actions (diminished capacity) evaporate. Again, stick with the stupidity defense.
BB>>"You see, he is charged with criminal trespass and destruction of government property. Other charges will follow."
"Yes, exactly. These are not what he did. He admitted to trespassing, not destruction."
That is what trials are for. He already admitted to one offense but that does not preclude the prosecution from offering more charges.
"He "wandered around".
Next time you wander around a forest, think about what it would be like if you were then extradited to the US for charges for destroying the forest."
If I wander around in a forest that resides on private property, one that has been posted with a big, easy to read sign saying "STAY OUT", then I deserve to be charged. If there is damaged property found in the vicinity of where I was trespassing, then I should expect to be charged for it, even if I didn't cause the damage. Whether I actually caused the damage to the forest is for the State to prove.
"There's a big difference between destruction and wandering."
Gosh, you Brits are so smart.
"Don't be so ignorant."
And so sumg at the same time.
With regard to the damage charge: If Mr McKinnon had just stayed out of the computer system he had been warned to avoid, he wouldn't have to worry about being charge with damaging the computer system, would he. In fact, if he had just kept his curiosity contained, he wouldn't be facing any of these charges.
But you seem to think that freewheeling curiosity is just innocent fun that the US government has blown completely out of proportion. The facts are quite the opposite. He broke the law, has admitted to breaking the law, and must now pay a price for that offense.
I hope McKinnon gets one of those PMITA prisons. He's sure to enjoy that.
Jose
No one is trying to say that Gary didn't trespass, or that he wasn't guilty of unauthorised access.
Prima Facie evidence of damage should have been presented openly in the UK court in order for Gary's legal team to defend Gary's position.
If the US presented evidence to the Home Secretary without Gary's legal team having a chance to defend his position in court, what sort of justice is that?
It's not about presenting Prima Facie evidence in a US court; Gary is in the UK and is a UK citizen, it's here in an open court that any evidence should be presented in order to be challenged ion court.
Do I have evidence of this you ask: well Gary wasn't given the chance to defend himself as he wasn't privy to what was presented to the Home Secretary.
We now have evidence being presented in secret it seems.
At least Gary did admit to unauthorised access.
The point is it's all so incredibly out of proportion.
You don't use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
My points about the death penalty etc were to show that the UK justice system is now nothing like the US justice system.
Trespassing into computers should not be an extraditable offence. It's ridiculous.
He didn't hurt anyone, he didn't rape or kill anyone.
It is all way out of proportion and that's why people are totally pissed off with UK citizens being bullied by the American government.
Like the British housewife who is serving sixty years in a US prison because of her husbands dodgy business deals.
That would just never happen in the UK, to either a British or an American citizen.
The point again being, that our judicial system is nothing like the US judicial system.
The US government admitted that Gary was not a terrorist and had no terrorist connections.
Gary McKinnon has not admitted that he caused damage; he has always denied this.
I'll ignore your brain dead comment because your rudeness is typical of someone with your extreme views.
Gary is happy to be tried in his own country and to face a sentence proportionate to the crime; which he would recieve in his own country.
To extradite someone for this is way over the top and makes you very unpopular.
If America is using this treaty to extradite our citizens, it ought to reciprocate it first.
Sign the treaty America, if you think it's so fair and if not, then leave our citizens alone please.
Free Gary
Squall
BB>> "With regard to the damage charge: If Mr McKinnon had just stayed out of the computer system he had been warned to avoid, he wouldn't have to worry about being charge with damaging the computer system, would he. In fact, if he had just kept his curiosity contained, he wouldn't be facing any of these charges."
You make a good point. I do not agree that curiosity is an excuse for tresspass. However, it is a reason to give consideration to the tresspasser. However, damage charges ARE being brought up without evidence. You must remember though, that Gary's guilt is not really in question - merely whether or not it is right that he should be extradited.
BB>>"He broke the law, has admitted to breaking the law, and must now pay a price for that offense."
It is that price that is being brought into question. Without proof that he damaged these systems, he does not deserve to be sent to another country and unfairly inprisoned for decades. Even if he did, we know that there are degrees of a crime, based on planning and forethought. If it was an accident, then a deal of leniency needs to be shown.
Make no mistake, if I see hard evidence that Gary intentionally entered US Military systems and purposefully damaged them, I will be happy to fly him to the States myself. That, however, is not the case.
body bagger
"Prima Facie evidence of damage should have been presented openly in the UK court in order for Gary's legal team to defend Gary's position."
Fine. Drop the damage charge and extradite on the charge of criminal trespass. If he is found guilty, he is in US custody and they can refile the damage charges at that time.
Do you see how irrelevant your point is regarding McKinnon's extradition? The prima facie case has already been made and the extradition order has been executed. McKinnon will be in the US to stand trial.
"We now have evidence being presented in secret it seems."
Secret? This issue has at least 156 related weblinks on news.google.com. There are several news organizations covering this topic and all of them have the same information that you and I have. So much for secrecy.
"At least Gary did admit to unauthorised access."
Then he should be a stand-up guy and not fight his extradition. He should come to the US, plead guilty and ask for leniency.
"The point is it's all so incredibly out of proportion. You don't use a sledgehammer to crack a nut."
If you know something is against the law, you shouldn't commit the crime. Have you people so completely missed that point?
"He didn't hurt anyone, he didn't rape or kill anyone."
No one said he did.
"It is all way out of proportion and that's why people are totally pissed off with UK citizens being bullied by the American government."
Which UK citizens have been bullied around by the US? McKinnon and whom? A group of people in Afghanistan with Kalashnikovs who have sworn to kill both US and UK citizens?
Didn't you look outside today? Didn't the UK observe the one year anniversary of the bombing of the subways? Are you going to defend the people who bombed your citizens and the people who are in league with them?
Sorry, mate. You are losing this argument quickly.
"Trespassing into computers should not be an extraditable offence. It's ridiculous."
Well, you are in the minority. Consider this if you will. The military systems that McKinnon was 'wandering around in' could have eventually contained troop deployment information not only for US forces, but for UK forces in Iraq. Whether you agree with the foreign policy of the Iraq invasion or not, McKinnon's activities compromised systems that could have been instrumental in the survival of British soldiers. I don't take that issue lightly.
"The point again being, that our judicial system is nothing like the US judicial system."
The similarities outweigh the differences. Pick away at the edges and I can still argue from the core.
"Gary McKinnon has not admitted that he caused damage; he has always denied this."
I'll assume that they found damage on the computer systems that McKinnon had trespassed on. The fact that the damage occurred on systems that he had been on may be coincidental, or he may have caused the damage. That is what trials are for.
"I'll ignore your brain dead comment because your rudeness is typical of someone with your extreme views."
By "rude", you mean characterizing the US government as a oppressive fascist regime unwilling to abide by human rights?
Perhaps you should scroll back a bit and read a few of your posts.
"Gary is happy to be tried in his own country and to face a sentence proportionate to the crime; which he would recieve in his own country."
So if anyone commits a crime in the UK and manages to get back to their home country, they should be tried and sentenced according to the laws and customs of their home state, right?
What if someone kills a Jew in the UK and heads back to Iran? What do you think their punishment will be?
Or in a less extreme case, what if a Russian citizen uses a computer in their country to break into the Ministry of Defense's computers? Should they stand trial in Russia or the UK?
See how stupid that sounds even in the less extreme case?
"To extradite someone for this is way over the top and makes you very unpopular."
Life is not a popularity contest.
bo
after 2 yrs in a us prison
i can honestly say that he will not get a fair trial nor is the burden of proof requirement anything like here. the whole system is loaded from the start. the police state is bad enough here but you havent seen anything till you have been over there. I wish him well as if he goes over there its a done deal and they will have there fall guy. he strikes me as a decent guy.
I think that the only way is to change the system and it looks unlikey that will happen in this time frame. Lets just hope that something can be done not only for gary but also for the rediculous fast track extradition ruling.
Good luck mate..
Jay
I've seen claims from supporters that Gary is a scapegoat. Someone who breaks the law is not a scapegoat: are the US supposed to thank him for causing all that damage? As for claims that Gary was merely attempting to highlight the frailties of the system, well that's absurd: he's also claimed he was looking for proof of UFOs.
Just because security was poor does not justify the illegal act. Can a rapist claim innocence if his victim was naked and unconscious at the time? Or a robber claim innocence if his victim's house was left unlocked? No.
body bagger
Re: McKinnon's curiosity getting the best of him
"You make a good point. I do not agree that curiosity is an excuse for tresspass. However, it is a reason to give consideration to the tresspasser."
Well, I know that the sentencing of McKinnon is what most disturbs people and it concerns me as well. I know that the Administration (as well as past Administration and major corporations) have often inflated the estimates of damage that crackers have done to computer systems simply by entering and browsing. I don't think his offense deserves 40 years in Ft. Leavenworth, but he shouldn't be out walking around in six months either. If I were to make the sentencing recommendations it would be based on his past record, his future risk to society, and the systems that he penetrated. Those factors combined would give him 32 months in prison, with the opportunity for time off for good behavior, and 36 months supervised probation. If he were good and the system worked right, he could be out in less than two years and have three years of supervised probation.
"However, damage charges ARE being brought up without evidence."
The evidence may consist of missing or delete files and McKinnon's digital fingerprints all over the affected system. That is the risk he took when he enter the system without permission.
And that is what a trial is for. The State will have to prove him guilty to a jury of 12 people.
"You must remember though, that Gary's guilt is not really in question - merely whether or not it is right that he should be extradited."
If this were a Russian citizen cracking a UK computer system, would your position be the same? Would you demand that the Russian be tried in Russia or extradited to the UK?
"If it was an accident, then a deal of leniency needs to be shown."
Well, I don't think his trespass was accidental, but if he damaged the systems he should be held to account for that as well. As you noted, there should be consideration for whether the intent was malicious or not, but he should still be held responsible for damage that occurred as a result of his negligence.
Re: evidence that McKinnon damaged computers
"That, however, is not the case."
That is what trials are designed to determine, no?
body bagger
"i can honestly say that he will not get a fair trial nor is the burden of proof requirement anything like here. the whole system is loaded from the start."
Spoken like a true con. If you spent two years in custody in a US jail you were either guilty as hell, or you had crappy council. The fact that you had a bad experience doesn't mean that the system is rigged; it just means you got screwed. That happens - both in the US and in the UK.
The principle difference I can see between the US and UK justice systems is length of sentencing. The US is fixated on long terms, which hardly put a dent in recidivism rates and clog the justice system with too many convicts with life sentences. The costs, both social and economic, are getting too great for the US to bear. I expect to see a change in that mentality coming soon, as taxes for prison construction and incarceration outstrip every other public service.
But otherwise the US and UK systems are still based on the premise of innocence of the accused, the right to see the evidence used against you, and the right to a jury trial. Both systems also reserve the right to hold tribunal-like trials when information essential to preserving national security is at risk.
Jose
Which UK citizens have been bullied around by the US you ask?.... The poor British woman who is serving sixty years in a US prison because of her husband's dodgy business dealings for one.
The UK citizens who are not terrorists but are white collar workers, who are currently fighting extradition and facing out of proportion sentences.
This "one sided" "treaty" was supposed to be about extraditing terrorists. These white collar workers are not terrorists and the US has not and never will sign this treaty. Why?
If the US think it's so fair they should reciprocate the treaty but they never will; so how then is it a treaty?
Criminal trespass should absolutely not be an extraditable offence; that's my point.
The UK is capable of conducting it's own trials and prosecuting its own citizens.
The "evidence" you say, was presented to the Home Secretary (in secret) meaning that Gary did not have the opportunity to challenge this "evidence".
So you're now equating Gary McKinnon with people with guns! See what I mean about out of proportion and extremist views.
What has Gary got to do with Kalashnikovs?
What has Gary's case got to do with bombings or bombers?
I'm absolutely not in the minority in the UK.
Most people here think the American government bullies everyone and is trying to run our country and trying to turn us into another American state.
If the military systems were sensitive they should have been secured and not able to be walked into by someone with average computer skills, using a dial up machine in his girlfriends house.
Laws are not enough and the world's superpower ought to know that.
You'd best secure your systems before a real terrorist walks in; they're not exactly going to read a note and walk away.
You're lucky it was Gary who walked in and this should have been a wake up call to get your security together.
American citizens will be just a tad worried when they find out how unbelievably poor their military computers are.
No one here can understand the fact that your security is so dreadful.
Unfortunately most people in the UK do now think the "current" US government has little regard for Human Rights and is akin to a facist regime.
This wasn't me being rude; this is how most people in the UK honestly feel.
The analogy of killing a Jew is purely emotive.
What has Gary got to do with killing anyone?
He wasn't in another country; he was in the UK.
The whole computer thing is so new that very clear laws and sentences, which are supposed to be deterrents; should have been laid out clearly.
Unauthorised computer access was not an extraditable offence, so there was no sentence guidelines/deterrents from other countries such as America.
Obviously had someone like Gary known the ludicrous sentencing and prospect of extradition; they would most likely never have trespassed into military computers.
To arrest someone almost four years later, once the "treaty" has been signed by someone stupid enough to sign a one sided treaty, is underhanded.
You've really got to get your security together rather than trying to punish someone by using extreme measures such as extradition for non violent offences.
Both the US government and the UK government regularly hack into peoples computer systems.
So why aren't they extradited? Because it's silly, that's why.
I doubt very much whether the Russians, would extradite one of their own citizens to America; just as America wouldn't extradite one of it's own citizens to Russia.
Most countries would refuse to extradite one of their own citizens for unauthorised access into another countries computers and you know that's true.
Only Britain is stupid enough to hand it's own citizens over on a plate for non violent crimes.
Life is about caring for each other and not treating each other harshly.
Compassion is respected; bullying is not.
For violent crimes no one would object but for "white collar crimes", these are extreme measures.
It's not good for any country to ride roughshod over everyone else.
It's not good to make enemies of so many good people.
Life may not be a popularity contest but it's preferable to be respected for fairness than to be thought of as the bullies of the world.
The America government was very respected at one time, as being the "good guy" and upholder of Human Rights.
That's changing rapidly and I don't think that's good for any of us.
Jose
If you think the sentences the US imposes for non violent crimes are fair, you come close to realising how totally different our Judicial systems are.
Rob
Gary broke into US computers housed on US soil, and now he is crying like a spoiled brat because he doesn't want to face a US jury? Does that mean that someone can goto the UK, break a bunch of UK laws, then cry "persecution" to avoid being extradited to the UK? That's a pretty good scam.
Rob
Gary broke into US computers housed on US soil, and now he is crying like a spoiled brat because he doesn't want to face a US jury? Does that mean that someone can goto the UK, break a bunch of UK laws, then cry "persecution" to avoid being extradited to the UK? That's a pretty good scam.
Mike
Once the USA and the UK could look for respect for their fair judicial systems. Now they are on a race to teh bottom.
Gary is caught up in a game of being tough on terror - but the victims are rarely, if ever, terrorists.
Now I am supporting hackers and bankers aginst injustice, neither my favourite people in the past. Let Gary go.
body bagger
"Which UK citizens have been bullied around by the US you ask?.... The poor British woman who is serving sixty years in a US prison because of her husband's dodgy business dealings for one."
You keep citing that case without mentioning the woman's name. Any particular reason for that oversight?
"The UK citizens who are not terrorists but are white collar workers, who are currently fighting extradition and facing out of proportion sentences."
You are referring now to Mr Kinnon, right? 'Proportionality' for a crime is something that is a sovereign right for every nation to determine, is it not? Should Jordan be able to protest that you don't do enough to prosecute pornographers?
If you don't like the sentence, don't commit the crime.
"This "one sided" "treaty" was supposed to be about extraditing terrorists. These white collar workers are not terrorists and the US has not and never will sign this treaty. Why?"
You've obviously been listening to your local Tory MP on this one, because they have made this a point of contention - not between the US and the UK, but between the Labour and Tory parties. I have no interest in your internal squabbles.
If you don't like the treaty, encourage your Prime Minister to renegotiate or abrogate it. The fact that your PM signed a treaty you don't like hasn't changed the status of McKinnon's guilt despite the fact that you have brought it up on countless occasions.
"The UK is capable of conducting it's own trials and prosecuting its own citizens."
But the crime was not committed on a UK computer system, was it? Change the citizen from UK to Russian, and the affected country from US to UK. Would you be so accommodating to allow the Russian government to prosecute one of their own citizens for breaking into a UK military computer system? You seem to ignore that question.
The rest of your post is filled with the same hyperbole as your other pointless posts. You are not arguing with me about McKinnon; you are bitching about GW Bush and his policies. I have no interest in debating you about Bush since I have told you before that I did not vote for him nor do I support his policies. That point is also ignored by you.
"Life is about caring for each other and not treating each other harshly."
Tell that to Osama. I'm sure you will find him to be a compassionate, caring listener.
Alun Pugh
Guilt is a matter for courts to decide; so this is a general comment.
Because of hackers, I have to spend money to (partially) protect my computer. It runs slower as a result of anti virus software, firewalls etc.
More importantly, everyone pays more via taxes and extra costs on business due to the criminal and anti social efforts of hackers. While the majority of hacking incidents cause no physical harm nobody can claim it's harmless to mess around with critical computer systems - its a very serious criminal activity that hacks me off.
If you want to play with computers buy a playstation; leave air traffic control alone.
jnF
Thanks andy, I like the idea of being infamous.
JNF aka DAN
olivia
The US wouldn't extradite one of their own citizens for unauthorised computer access.
Why won't the US sign the "treaty" between the US and the UK?
You don't answer that because you can't.
It's unfair and you know it.
Why do Americans who work for the US military always say things like Gary crys like a baby, or cry's like a spolied brat.
Your petty language referring to people as babies, because they have more sense than to want to go to a country who dishes out extreme sentences for non violent crimes is embarrassing. .
Your desperation to have people like Gary locked up and imprisoned is weird.
What is your problem?
Why is your attitude so vindictive?
Save your vindictive attitude for violent criminals.
We in the UK know you have a policy of putting people onto lists of supporters, to try and undermine that support.
It doesn't work here; everyone can see it clearly and can spot the military people who are trying to undermine support for people such as Gary.
This is a Free Gary website, so what are you doing on here if you don't want Gary to be Free?
It's clear to everyone who you are and what you're trying to do.
Your desperation for your pound of flesh is rather sad.
I pray that Gary McKinnon will never be subjected to a jury in Virginia, as he hasn't got a hope in hell of having a fair trial there.
Gary should be tried in his own country, where justice has a hope of being done.
If Gary McKinnon goes to the US, they will change the charges and add additional charges on a whim and then use emotive arguments about what could have happened and what he might have caused.
People will cry and talk about 9/11 as though Gary could have stopped it.
It will all become so hysterical and out of proportion.
You only have to read some of the posts from our American military people to get just an inkling of what will happen.
We've all seen it so many times and quite frankly,it stinks.
It's scary and we here in the UK have the sense to see through it and to know what will happen if he's sent there.
Fair trial? Not a hope in hell.
Sorry Gary! I hope for a miracle or an ounce of compassion for you from our spineless government.
Good Luck
body bagger
"Why won't the US sign the "treaty" between the US and the UK? You don't answer that because you can't."
The reason I don't answer is because it is irrelevant. If you don't like the fact that Blair signed the treaty, take it up with him.
"Why do Americans who work for the US military always say things like Gary crys like a baby, or cry's like a spolied brat."
I guess you must be referring to someone else. I don't work for the US military.
"Your desperation to have people like Gary locked up and imprisoned is weird."
I'm not desperate. I just want an admitted felon to serve his time. I guess you must have a different view of what to do with admitted law breakers.
"Save your vindictive attitude for violent criminals."
"Violent" as in rape or murder? Everyone else gets a pass, eh?
"We in the UK know you have a policy of putting people onto lists of supporters, to try and undermine that support.
It doesn't work here; everyone can see it clearly and can spot the military people who are trying to undermine support for people such as Gary."
Pass around the tin-foil hats Olivia. I could care less who you are or what list you think is being compiled. I remember quite clearly having a heated argument with an ex-pat Brit several years back about rounding up all the IRA sympathizers in Boston and shipping them off to the UK for trial. I guess he was just speaking for himself, right?
The facts are a bit more difficult to face, Olivia. When British citizens are the subject of crimes by foreign nationals they can be seen outside of the embassy of the country in question protesting vociferously. I guess that must not be you out there, being how you are so understanding and all.
"This is a Free Gary website, so what are you doing on here if you don't want Gary to be Free?"
I guess "Free" doesn't apply to "speech".
"It's clear to everyone who you are and what you're trying to do."
No it isn't. You are looking at what I am writing and making an assessment about who I am. You have no idea what I believe except with respect to prosecuting McKinnon. Other than that, you are just speculating.
"I pray that Gary McKinnon will never be subjected to a jury in Virginia, as he hasn't got a hope in hell of having a fair trial there."
Yeah. Right. Nothing like ignorance of fact to drive and opinion, eh Olivia?
Have you ever been to Virginia?
"Gary should be tried in his own country, where justice has a hope of being done."
So if a foreign national commits a crime in the UK they should be given the option of being tried in their home country?
"If Gary McKinnon goes to the US, they will change the charges and add additional charges on a whim and then use emotive arguments about what could have happened and what he might have caused. People will cry and talk about 9/11 as though Gary could have stopped it."
No, that will only happen if you are in charge of the prosecution Olivia.
"It will all become so hysterical and out of proportion."
You mean like your post?
"I hope for a miracle or an ounce of compassion for you from our spineless government."
Yes everyone! Vote Tory! I'm sure they will fix everything.
UxBoD
What surprises me is that many another hacker would have been employed by a high flying security company, and not potentially left to rot. I don't condone hacking, but if a Sys Admin leaves their system open it is bound to happen. That is why so many IT Security companies are in business. Good luck Gary, justice will pervail, in whatever form. Remember what was done could be perceived as wrong, but the IT Security industry has also profitied.
malboro
buena vista la tuya!!!
solo queda esperar pero dejenlo tranquilo y refuerzen su sistema estados unidos es un chico nada mas !!!
haber si pueden con bin laden y a gary dejenlo en paz!!!
UxBod
/Condone or support hacking/
Olivia
You somehow know that so called evidence was passed directly to the Home Secretary by the American government.
You also call yourself body bagger; so it's pretty obvious that you are somehow involved in trying to ensure Gary McKinnon's prosecution or/and extradition.
The American and British government hack into computers on a daily basis. What happen's to those hackers?
Shame you're not spending your time and energy on punishing violent/serious criminals.
The truth is that people care about violent crimes, they don't really give a toss about computer intrusion.
People rightly feel that responsibility for internet security is in the hands of the owner of the computer systems, particularly when that owner is the world's super power.
It is up to them to ensure that their systems are safe and it's they who should be prosecuted if they have been so negligent, that they left their doors wide open and potentially put their citizens at risk.
Free Gary
Prosecute those responsible for negligence and for failing to secure the military computer systems.
fg
@ body bagger - one of your ideas is morally wrong and illegal, even in the USA:
This goes against the long established and sensible principle of speciality in international extradition law. i.e. a country must present all the charges it intends to proceed with in an extradition request.
The speciality rule, which is written into most extradition treaties, means that a person cannot be tried for offences other than those for which they were extradited, unless they are first given an opportunity to return to the territory that they were extradited from.
Any further charges require a second extradition request and the opportunity for the original country to evaluate it.
If the two sets of charges actually relate to the same alleged crimes, then the principle of double jeopardy applies.
nixium
Any backlash is going to cause the government to lose votes if people feel that they cannot be protected from extradition to the States, a country which has a death penalty, whereas the UK does not.
I will be voting for a party which promises extradition protection to its citizens rather than caving-in like cowards to a dominant power.
John
This idiot went hacking US military computer systems and thinks he should get away with that?
And to his 'supporters', in making him a 'cause celebre' you make it far more likely that US justice will need to make him an 'example'.
You really think the US is going to give 'carte blanche' to all and sundry to come snooping in their military computer systems?
He's going down.
Philip
Personally I shed no tears for Mr. McKinnon. The fact of the matter is that he admits to having committed criminal offences. His excuse that the US government's computer security is inadequate is risible - just because the front door of a house is left unlocked, does that entitle you to go in and wander around it? Of course not.
He committed his offences against the US Government and therefore accepted the risk of extradition and prosecution by the US.
The point about the non-reciprocal nature of the treaty is ultimately irrelevant. Even if the US Senate had properly ratified it, Mr. McKinnon would still have been extradited. (I say that speaking as a practicising lawyer).
I hope the hacking community are taking careful note of this decision. Illegal actions do have a consequence - and it may be unpleasant.
Philip
Cat
Ok. I don't disagree with him being extradited. He hacked into American military software, which is just asking for trouble. But, he did not do it with malicious intent. He should be tried in America, but serving 60 years in jail is not justified. Besides, it's partly America's fault for having crappy security software. Perhaps the guys in the I.T. department should be disciplined too.
Jose
Tell a real terrorist that he musn't come in even if you leave your doors unlocked. Now how stupid does that sound.
According to information on the internet, many hackers from other countries are regularly hacking into the same systems.
Do you think Osama Bin Forgotten followers are going to take any heed of a government who can't even secure their own military computer systems.
Do you think the American public are going to want to vote for a government that is so negligent that it can't even secure it's own military computer systems.
I think the American public will want the military people who were responsible for the serious lapses in security to be prosecuted and sentenced.
I think the American public will vote for a new leader, unless the elections are rigged. (remember the Jed Bush fiasco)
The American public will absolutely realise how lucky they were that it wasn't a real terrorist who was able to walk right through their wide open doors.
Several of the current extradition cases are hugely embarrassing for our government and are making fools of them in the eyes of their own people.
The Nat West 3's Judicial Review; instead of the decision being made by those who heard all of the evidence; the case was handed back to the Home Secretary for him to decide. Is he a even a lawyer?....No!
Now what kind of Justice is that, when the highest court in the land was obviously pressurised or were so embarrassed that they chose to hand the decision of a huge legal case over to the Home Secretary....
because the legal teams and judges didn't want to make fools of themselves by making such a stupid decision, so they let the Home Secretary do it.
What then was the point of a Judicial Review when the Judiciary wouldn't embarrass themselves by making the decision the government wanted.
Justice has gone out of the window it seems, while our misleaders do the bidding of a country which will not even sign/reciprocate the treaty on which they are extraditing our citizens and making fools of all of us.
This extradition treaty was supposedly signed by our government to fast track the Extradition of terrorists.
Can't they find any real terrorists;....
so they grab a few British white collar workers to make an example of and have a big show trial to show how nasty those Brits are.
This will in no way be a deterrent to other would be cyberspace trespassers.
Many young people are very angry about this proposed extradition and are angry at how our nation is being bullied and our government is selling out its own citizens.
I think you'll see more hacks than ever by real hackers; not people like Gary McKinnon who was stupid enough to leave his girlfriends email and ip address behind.
Look on the internet and read the views of real hackers who think Gary McKinnon was a novice with very basic knowledge.
He even used his girlfriends ancient dial up machine.... Oops! Big Hacker you've got there America.
In case you don't know; look on the internet at how many people have hacked the US government computers recently; many of them are from China!
This has been admitted to by the US government.
I forgot; you have a notice up telling them not to enter.
It's all Chinese to some people apparently.
Secret trial for Gary McKinnon or not, everyone in the USA will get to hear all about the wide open doors and lack of security, once Gary McKinnon is extradited.
You might shut him up but you can't shut the world up if he's extradited.
Enjoy the publicity and the reaction of the American people....and wait for the backlash!!!
It won't only be Gary McKinnon who is brought down`.
How embarrassing is that for the US government.
Free Gary
Panda
All hackers deserve punishement, nothing tought about it, curiosity killed the cat, if you can't stand the heat keep out of the kitchen.
body bagger
"You somehow know that so called evidence was passed directly to the Home Secretary by the American government."
It has been reported in the papers, Olivia. Try reading them completely without getting upset that the US is involved before finishing the story.
"You also call yourself body bagger; so it's pretty obvious that you are somehow involved in trying to ensure Gary McKinnon's prosecution or/and extradition."
You like to make stuff up. You must write children's stories.
"Shame you're not spending your time and energy on punishing violent/serious criminals."
Who says I'm not?
body bagger
"@ body bagger - one of your ideas is morally wrong and illegal, even in the USA:"
We shall see, won't we?
BB>>"Fine. Drop the damage charge and extradite on the charge of criminal trespass. If he is found guilty, he is in US custody and they can refile the damage charges at that time"
"This goes against the long established and sensible principle of speciality in international extradition law. i.e. a country must present all the charges it intends to proceed with in an extradition request."
Only if there is sufficient information at the time of extradition to charge the person of interest. What if McKinnon commits a crime while in US custody? Does that mean he has to go through a second extradtion hearing? Sorry, but that isn't how it works. See your argument represented below.
"The speciality rule, which is written into most extradition treaties, means that a person cannot be tried for offences other than those for which they were extradited, unless they are first given an opportunity to return to the territory that they were extradited from."
Well, that won't apply to McKinnon in this instance since the damage charge is already contained in the indictment that was reviewed by the Home Secretary for extradition. Again, any further charges will be filed as evidence is gathered during discovery. How they are handled will follow US and international law, as you have pointed out.
"Any further charges require a second extradition request and the opportunity for the original country to evaluate it."
True. If he must face additional charges not specified in the original indictment (i.e., terrorism), then he will get another hearing. He still isn't off the hook, however. You streched your argument too far - see below.
"If the two sets of charges actually relate to the same alleged crimes, then the principle of double jeopardy applies."
Wrong. Double jeopardy only applies when someone is charged twice for the same offense. They can be charged multiple times for other offenses related to the same crime. This is how the US government convicted white supremacists in the 1960's when local juries would not convict them of killing blacks. The federal courts brought them up on charges of violating the black citizens civil rights.
Sorry, but McKinnon can be charged again for any crimes related to the original offense. Double jeopardy is not attached unless he is acquitted on the first indictment and they attempt to charge him again for computer trespass and damaging government property.
McKinnon will face every charge that the US government brings against him because the UK will extradite him back to stand trial.
body bagger
@Jose
"Can't they find any real terrorists;....
so they grab a few British white collar workers to make an example of and have a big show trial to show how nasty those Brits are."
In nearly every one of your posts you attack the Administration rather than face the fact that McKinnon broke US law. You and I share some points of view regarding the current President, but that fact alone shouldn't give McKinnon a free pass to violate another country's national security laws.
I have given you the opportunity to comment on how you would feel about a similar situation with a Russian cracker breaking into a UK computer system and all you can write is endless screed about Bush and the current Administration. It is as if McKinnon's case is a side-show for your own soapbox about US foreign policy.
TO ALL SUPPORTERS OF MCKINNON:
If I take exception to the next UK government, does that give me carte blanche to begin penetration testing of all of your government computer systems? Considering the fact that NO system is completely secure, it wouldn't take me long to use brute force methods to break into at least one computer. And, according to the reasoning of the McKinnon supporters, it should be completely within my rights (because I will dislike the next UK government) to break into government property and, if caught, stand trial in the US for those offenses.
I can tell you now that I would not be charged in the US for cracking UK computer systems. The US government would not have standing in US courts to bring charges against me for breaking into a foreign country's computer systems. This is the real reason that McKinnon's supporters want him tried in the UK. He won't see a day in court.
Jan
All evidence should have been produced in court but instead was shown privately to a Home secretary where it could not be challenged.
Where is the justice in that?
Justice has to be seen to be done.
It's obvious when you come on to a Free Gary website to spend a great deal of time condemning Mr McKinnon that you have a vested interest, as do one or two others who have recently come onto this website.
To call yourself body bagger speaks volumes.
Poor Gary, what hope does he have in the USA; he would have served a fraction of the time had he murdered someone.
What does that say about the Justice system.
You're turning Gary into a national hero because everyone is sick of the crap they're hearing.
Leave our computer guys alone. He would have got six months in the UK.
Secure your systems FGS. The Chinese are having a ball just checking out your sensitive military information.
Get some guys who understand even the basics of internet security to work for you and save everyone a lot of time and trouble.
BTW Gary, Love your songs, we've all been downloading them. Chin up mate.
body bagger
"It's obvious when you come on to a Free Gary website to spend a great deal of time condemning Mr McKinnon that you have a vested interest, as do one or two others who have recently come onto this website."
It is easy to claim that my motives are "obvious", but much harder to prove.
I am a writer, several thousand miles from your shores, who is upset that someone has used a computer in his country of origin to violate national security laws of my country. I want to see justice done. I find it interesting that despite countless challenges, all of the McKinnon supporters seem to avoid discussion of how the UK would respond if it were their country's computer systms had been penetrated by a foreign intruder. Funny that, eh?
"To call yourself body bagger speaks volumes."
Apparently only to you or Olivia. What does 'body bagger' mean to you?
"Leave our computer guys alone."
Fair enough. We will stop demanding their extradition when they stop breaking into our computer systems.
Jose
In every post I attack the idiots who could't secure military computer systems.
It's not about the administration perse but is about all of the people in charge of government and military security who had blank passwords and no firewalls!!!
Yes, that's right.
No Firewalls!!!
Russia would never extradite one of its citizens for this and the US would never extradite one of their citizens to Russia for a crime of this nature. (answered)
You're all at it; the governments all hack into each others and everybody's and anybody's computers.
It's like living in a police state. People in the US and the UK now have their phones tapped, their computers tapped and tracked and more security cameras on every street corner than in almost any other country in the world
but the US government gets really pissed off because someone with very basic computer skills can walk in and have a look around their systems because their security is non existent.
Get a sense of perspective and stop the witch hunt of UK citizens who are not terrorists or murderers.
We're sick of the bullying of our citizens and our country.
We didn't vote for your leaders but our country is now clearly being run and dictated to by America.
Never before would a UK citizen have been extradited for such a nothing crime. It's way out of proportion and is being done because the U.S government are embarrassed because of their dreadful lack of military security.
Free Gary and Free the UK
body bagger
"In every post I attack the idiots who could't secure military computer systems."
Which has nothing to do with whether McKinnon had a right to enter those systems, a fact you choose to ignore.
"It's not about the administration perse..."
Yes, it is. Read your posts again.
"Russia would never extradite one of its citizens for this and the US would never extradite one of their citizens to Russia for a crime of this nature. (answered)"
No, not answered. You haven't said how you would feel about the fact that a foreign national had penetrated your national security computer systems from a foreign country. Nice attempt at a dodge.
"You're all at it; the governments all hack into each others and everybody's and anybody's computers."
I guess that gives McKinnon a pass, right?
"It's like living in a police state."
You are so far from discussing McKinnon now it is hilarious.
"People in the US and the UK now have their phones tapped, their computers tapped and tracked and more security cameras on every street corner than in almost any other country in the world"
Again, this fact has NOTHING to do with McKinnon's crime.
"but the US government gets really pissed off because someone with very basic computer skills can walk in and have a look around their systems because their security is non existent."
Robin Hood, eh? Oh, I see. Again, how would you feel if it were YOUR country's computer systems? I don't care about the possibility of whether the person committing the crime will ever be extradited. How would you FEEL about that person being tried in country of origin rather than the UK?
I'm getting the sense that you are deliberately avoiding answering that question directly.
"Get a sense of perspective and stop the witch hunt of UK citizens who are not terrorists or murderers."
Your claim of witch hunt lacks any substance. And despite my request for the name of the woman who is allegely serving a long sentence in the US for her husband's crime, you have have failed to provide it.
"We're sick of the bullying of our citizens and our country."
Again, that is just pure bunk. This whole idea of the US bullying UK citizens is a fabrication without any substance. You can't even provide the names of people you cite in earlier posts.
"We didn't vote for your leaders but our country is now clearly being run and dictated to by America."
Too bad for you, eh? I guess all those years of "Rule Britannia" have come home to roost.
How does it feel living in an empire in decline?
Jay
Love your songs Gary. I downloaded two from the Lunar Girl website.
You've got an amazing voice. Hope you get the chance to do what you do best which is writing and performing your music.
Stay Strong.
Don't let them get you down.
They're probably all aliens who have no compassion for anyone.
Jay
Free Gary
Dan
Body Bagger. You, sir, in my humble opinion, are a Moron! You are also a nasty and sarcastic person. It is unfortunate that such people as you have such loud voices.
As a UK citizen: If a Russian, or any other nationality, hacked into the UK military, I would support them as much as I support Gary. Also I would be amused that the security could be so poor. And I would be absolutely convinced that such a crime is too plain silly to be imprisoned for.
body bagger
"Body Bagger. You, sir, in my humble opinion, are a Moron!"
It is a good thing your opinion carries little weight outside of this echo chamber.
"You are also a nasty and sarcastic person."
Because I refuse to make excuses for criminals? I'm willing to be called nasty and sarcastic for defending justice.
"It is unfortunate that such people as you have such loud voices."
Loud voices? Sir, you are obviously working on a different computer system than I am. Every person on this blog has an equal opportunity to post (a fact I am quite grateful to the host for, since he could easily delete or ban my posts), so my voice is equal to yours.
"As a UK citizen: If a Russian, or any other nationality, hacked into the UK military, I would support them as much as I support Gary."
That would make you a traitor under most country's laws, although I'm not certain of the UK's. Giving aid and comfort to people engaged in espionage against your country could be a serious crime. You should look into that before throwing your full weight of support behind them.
You are, however, at least consistent.
"Also I would be amused that the security could be so poor. And I would be absolutely convinced that such a crime is too plain silly to be imprisoned for."
I'm sure you would be laughing if someone broke into your computer. Care to publish your IP address so that we can have a go of it?
Dan
I do not morally consider this a crime, and if it makes me a traitor then I am disappointed. I do not support "espionage", no. I think you are defending injustice, and that is why I call you names.
My IP is 84.64.184.250.
Andrew Sprott
Ok Body Bagger. If you walk past a car, notice that there is a laptop on the back seat or any other valueable item and you also note that the car is unlocked, would you look inside the car to find out who owns it and tell the owner, or whould you leave it unlocked for someone else to maybe steal the laptop or whatever was in the car?
I know this isn't quite the same case, but what if a dedicated cracker managed to get access to your military databases and sold the information would you be so bold?
Andrew
body bagger
"I do not morally consider this a crime,"
Unfortunately for McKinnon, your opinion will have no impact on his case. The US considers it a crime.
If the computers had specs for bombs, or security plans for Sellafield, then that would have no bearing on your decision whether this is a crime or not, eh?
"... and if it makes me a traitor then I am disappointed. I do not support "espionage", no. I think you are defending injustice, and that is why I call you names."
No, you call me names because your position is indefensible.
"My IP is 84.64.184.250."
Interesting target. A dynamic IP address that will change the next time your lease renews. The IP addresses that McKinnon cracked were static and gave him plenty of time to make various attempts at entry. And using your moral compass, anyone from a foreign country not only has a right to try to break into these machines, but a solemn duty to do so.
It is interesting what Brits consider 'progressive' in the realm of morality.
wtwu
Try not to feed the internet troll
Jose
Body Bagger said: Too bad for you, eh? I guess all those years of "Rule Britannia" have come home to roost.
How does it feel living in an empire in decline?
This is exactly the kind of comment I would expect from someone with your views.
We have no wish to have an "Empire" but would like to have a government that isn't dominated by another country; especially a government with such scant regard for Human Rights.
I think Dan who posted, meant he would stand up for anyone to have the right to be tried in their own country, whether they were Russian or American.
I would do the same.
Dan can openly give his IP address because he presumably has a password and a firewall, as any sensible person would.
On the American Indictment of Gary, which is all over the internet;
the U.S government have blacked out the "secret" IP addresses; and as many people have pointed out!
If you highlight the blacked out IP addresses and paste them onto notepad or word; the IP addresses can be clearly seen and read. Now how funny is that ;-)
How stupid does that make the US military look when their security is still dreadful, even on an indictment of Gary.
You really have to laugh don't you, because it is so funny. How embarrassing for the U.S government.
I wonder if the Chinese have noticed yet?
The fact that the US government is trying to extradite Gary and they can't even hide the secret IP addresses they "blacked out"....Well! that says it all really.
You have to laugh. And I would laugh just as much if it was the UK government.
Fortunately some top American people are supporting Gary, including famous actors, film directors, physicists and politicians. You know....Good Americans who have a sense of perspective and who believe in Human Rights and know that this should never in a million years be an extraditable offence.
Many Americans are shocked at their government for barely having any internet security on their military systems and are glad it was Gary who trespassed.
Vincent Cable the Liberal MP knows the name of the British woman who was sentenced to sixty years in America because of her husband's dodgy business dealings, as she was one of his constituents.
I agree with Dan. Gary's crime is too plain silly to be imprisoned for.
If someone breached security in the UK, I would be glad it wasn't a terrorist and glad that our government had a wake up call to make sure they secured their systems.
However, many hackers have said....the UK's government security is too good and their computer systems have tight security.
Lighten up and see the funny side and stop being so vindictive.
It wouldn't matter which government it was; it's funny.
Jose
body bagger
"Ok Body Bagger. If you walk past a car, notice that there is a laptop on the back seat or any other valueable item and you also note that the car is unlocked, would you look inside the car to find out who owns it and tell the owner, or whould you leave it unlocked for someone else to maybe steal the laptop or whatever was in the car?"
The computer systems that he broke into were not completely 'open'. He had to read and acknowledge that he understood the notice I posted earlier.
"I know this isn't quite the same case, but what if a dedicated cracker managed to get access to your military databases and sold the information would you be so bold?"
And I would be willing to consider McKinnon's motives a mitigating factor at sentencing. I don't think he should serve more than three years. I don't think he should be shipped off to Cuba. But I also am unwilling to let a self-confessed cracker run free because people in the UK don't like GW Bush.
body bagger
"This is exactly the kind of comment I would expect from someone with your views."
You have no idea what my views are other than how they relate to Mr McKinnon. Other than that, you are just speculating.
Everything in your post is a repeat of previous posts, with the exception of the missing name of the "wife doing sixty years", and the admission that you would support espionage against the UK.
As for Dan's IP address, it will change the next time he turns his machine on, or when his ISP times out his lease. This is in contrast to the machines that McKinnon cracked, which were statically assigned. That gave him more time to make the attempts he needed to crack the systems. Breaking Dan's IP address would require knowing which IP address he was assigned at any given time in the lease pool. If you had run the host command from any Unix-based OS, you would have figured that out for yourself.
I am truly saddened to see a once great nation willing to lower its standards and allow criminal behaviour to occur unimpeded within its borders. It is even more disturbing that the citizens of this once mighty empire would take the position that it is the right of its citizens to break any law that they disagree with, let alone allow any foreign country to penetrate the computer systems of its national defense.
And what is most amusing about your whole anti-US rant is the view that it is okay to break into US government computers, but you all run firewalls with passwords. Why in the world would you want to protect your computers if it is no big deal to have someone trespass on your computer system?
Andrew Sprott
"The computer systems that he broke into were not completely 'open'. He had to read and acknowledge that he understood the notice I posted earlier."
Well, wouldn't a government property notice on the side of the car give you more incentive to notify the right personel?
"And I would be willing to consider McKinnon's motives a mitigating factor at sentencing. I don't think he should serve more than three years. I don't think he should be shipped off to Cuba."
Very considerate of you, but are you avoiding my question?
"But I also am unwilling to let a self-confessed cracker run free because people in the UK don't like GW Bush."
I may not be wrong in saying that 50% of Americans don't like GW Bush.
body bagger
@Andrew
Forgive me for not answering your question directly. I would take a pass at opening someone's car, even at the risk of helping them avoid property loss. It is not my right to break into someone's car no matter how pristine my motives.
But my point about the acknowledgement page is germane and not an attempt to dodge your question. Using your analogy, the window was not transparent enough for McKinnon to see into the car. He had to break into the car to make an assessment of its security. I don't think anyone would want a prowler testing cars to see which ones were secure or insecure.
That is exactly what McKinnon was doing - testing systems to see which ones were secure and which weren't.
Andrew Sprott
"I don't think anyone would want a prowler testing cars to see which ones were secure or insecure."
But Gary's motives were not that of a thief or a vandal and this is where the analogy differs.
dropout
You would think that the American government would have twigged on that is someone is able to hack many of the military networks, then the security on those networks is crap, and that maybe it would be more in there interest to use Gary's skills rather then punish him for having them, and showing them that they have huge lapses in security on there networks, they could use this to there advantage, but instead are more intersted in sending him to jail. I mean who would you rather take advice off about security for your home? Someone who has no idea of how to break it, or someone who does?
body bagger
BB>>"I don't think anyone would want a prowler testing cars to see which ones were secure or insecure."
"But Gary's motives were not that of a thief or a vandal and this is where the analogy differs."
With all due respect, Andrew, neither you nor I can with any certainty say just what McKinnon's motives were in cracking the computers in question.
I know that many of the people who have contributed to this board in support of Mr McKinnon sincerly believe him to be a good person who has been caught up in an unfortunate situation gone out of control. I don't know the relationship that any of you have with him, so perhaps some of you can testify personally to his character.
But the rest of you either believe that Mr McKinnon is innocent because of what he is charged with (this is morally *not* a crime), or are forgiving him for his crimes because of who is seeking his extradition (anti-US sentiment).
Whatever the case, no one, perhaps not even Mr McKinnon's closest relations, can really know what his motives were when he chose to break into US government property.
Andrew Sprott
"Whatever the case, no one, perhaps not even Mr McKinnon's closest relations, can really know what his motives were when he chose to break into US government property."
Curiosity. Which isn't exactly a crime and many hackers in the same situation who exposed weakness in IT security actually ended up with a job and a decent wage, not imprisonment.
Andrew Sprott
Another note. When I visited my father in the 80's I travelled to Dullas airport and over to the other airport in Washington the name I can't remember.
What I thought was incredible was that I walked in the airport and onto the shuttle with absolutely no security check.
I didn't even talk or see anyone about my flight, the tickets were paid for while the plane was in the air.
So, instead of slagging off us Brits and trying to make a mountain out of a termites nest, you should be more concerned about your home security.
Keith
A simple comment havind worked for the government and now a network administrator if this had happened on my network i wouldnt blame anyone but myself for being so LAX. American security is a joke and Gary is being made a total scapegoat for ther lack of security. As to our government allowing this to happen enough said im conservative and BLAIRE is rubbish
Steve
I write computer software for a living, and if someone exploits my ineptitude and gets into my computer system, I would consider resigning my position, not prosecuting the person who had the inteligence to diagnose my stupidity.
If you leave you car on the road side, with the doors open, would you expect an insurance company to pay you when it was stolen? No - due to the due-dilligence clause in the insurance policy. The USA intelligence (those two words don't sit nicely together on a page do they) community has not shown due dilligence in the construction of their computer systems. I wonder if this point is arguable in law in the USA ? Perhaps the defence should be based on attack - and stir up a bit of of public worry to the effect that if a British bedroom hacker can do that, imagine what the 26 million Chinese government computer scientists are doing. Lord, no wonder the foam is falling off the space shuttle, the hackers have edited the chemical formula used in the composition of the material.
You could go on for ever....if I were Gary I think I might just leave the country and go an live with Osama in Pakistan, coz one thing is for sure, the USA won't ever find him there.
Julliette Hart
I feel so bad for you Gary...I feel bad that the world we have all made has become so dark and twisted...I feel bad because we may fail to protect you...and I feel bad for the future hell that we are allowing to evolve. Not what I had wanted - a world of coldness :: lacking the most simple thing ::ethics...in my mind you are a Hero, aman who at least tried to expose the lies...you know what I am talking about...you placed your own life on the line to free us all from our bondage to the evil that plagues us all.
I had once a vision of our home planet to be a beautiful garden, somehow somewhere deep in my memories, I remember how it once was, here, and ask why? What happened to us that made it this way - this horrible place that I must face everyday - know everyday - cry everyday for the return to the garden.
You are my Hero, Gary, you were the only one who tried:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Love Esra
Steve
Regarding the NOTICE TO USERS posted earlier, the first paragraph alone is a legal disaster waiting to happen. Quote "
This is a Federal computer system and is the property of the United States Government. It is for authorized use only. Users (authorized or unauthorized) have no explicit or implicit expectation of privacy.
" Unquote
There are two contradictory statements here
1) This computer is for authorized use only
2) Users (authorized or unauthorized) have no explicit .......
Statement 2 states that unautorised users are expected to use the computer system and are legaly deemed as 'Users'.
Surely it should have read 1) This sytem is for authorized users only, from here on refered to as 'Users'.
2) Users have no explicit .......
I am no legal expert, but that looks like an open invitation to use the system to me.
John
My full support for you Gary. What you did was wrong, you've admitted that and are willing to do time for trespassing. The conduct of our Government is outrageous. Please give us an example of the damages that he caused.
I'm a sysadmin for a small company and know that blank admin passwords are a big no, as is allowing remote root/administrator login. I'd be embarassed if I left our systems wide open, and most likely would end up with no job.
Keith is spot on with the car & insurance analogy. You can't go crying to the authorities because you've cocked up your security and expect them to lock the offender up for life. Especially if there isn't adequate evidence of damage . Even the UK police said that they saw no evidence of damage whilst Gary was under surveillance.
It's quite blatent that Gary is being made a scapegoat. I can't see this detering people from countries with no extradition treaties and I certainly can't imagine <insert current bad guy on US hit list> saying "oh no, we can't hack the US systems because we might get extradited"
A simple message to the US: fix your problems at home, then maybe you can try solving the world's.
Jancat
You've made a couple of excellent points Steve and hopefully Gary's legal team (and possibly the media) can exploit this.
It's also good to bring all of this into the public domain as I'm sure they might attempt to try Gary in secret in order to hide their ineptitude.
I personally feel they are in the process of opening a huge can of worms that everyone may live to regret.
The fact that the USA "intelligence" community has absolutely not shown due dilligence in the construction of their computer systems, is an extremely valid point, as is the point that Gary (and the Chinese) were basically invited into the computer systems.
The fact that the US government have blacked out secret IP addresses in Gary's indictment, which can be easily read by anyone on the internet, by simply copying and pasting on to a notepad, is totally unbelievable but nevertheless true.
You will see that Gary was also originally indicted for unauthorised access and damage to civilian computers but as those civilian establishments denied that Gary had caused any damage; those charges have now been withdrawn by the US government and only military charges remain.
How convenient.
The US government have to claim such damage in order to extradite Gary and before this new "unratified" extradition treaty, such damage would have to be proven in an open court of law.
Unfortunately our government has now waved their citizens legal rights to such proof having to be shown in a British court, in their continuing efforts to bend over backwards for the Bush administration.
Someone calling themselves "body bagger" says that Mr Bush's policies bear no relation to this case.
As it is the Bush administration who is trying to make unauthorised computer access an extraditable offence; who and what these people are is totally relevant to Gary's case.
It is untrue for body bagger? to say that Gary could not be tried in his own country for this crime.
Mathew Bevan was accused of virtually the same crime ten years ago and he was tried in the UK, in his own country and was released because the US government could not prove it.
Mathew Bevan now runs an internet security firm and ten years later, US government I.T security is worse than ever it seems.
Body Bagger accuses someone of supporting espionage against the UK, because that person supports the right for someone to be tried in their own country: This reflects the kind of distortion of truth we are expecting and are afraid of hearing in a Virginia court.
America would never extradite one of their own citizens to Russia, or to any other country, for unauthorised computer access.
Body Bagger then accuses someone of ranting and repeating themselves.
I did not see repetition or any anti American rant in the post by Jose; I saw only valid argument.
Very few on here are anti American, although many are anti the Bush administration.
Gary has huge support from many respected American citizens, many of whom have told him that he would never get a fair trial in Virginia.
The US government are clearly out to make an example of Gary and our spineless government are happy to bend over and cast its citizens to the wind.
Despite our goverment admitting that they have been overwhelmed with letters of support for Gary; they are still intent on keeping the Bush administration happy.
So far Gary and his family have chosen to keep a relatively low profile and have hoped that this would all go away.
The US insistence that Gary be extradited, will unfortunately mean a media circus that no one wanted.
Extraditing Gary and trying him in public or in secret, will not keep the total lack of military security hidden; it will be highlighted to the extreme and won't be good for anyone.
and for what?
The Bush administration dominates our government and is now trying to dominate our legal system and to make examples of our citizens who have committed minor crimes that are totally unworthy of extradition.
Unauthorised computer access should never be an extraditable offence.
Our government falsely claimed that the new "unratified" extradition treaty would be used only for terrorist offences.
Perhaps real terrorists are in short supply, or too difficult to find.
So a few I.T workers and a few bankers are hauled of for extradition instead.
For what?
Paul
Hey,
Everybody seems to be missing the most important issues at stake here.
First, there are *no* such things as UFO's - think about it - really does it make any sense at all ? No, didn't think so....
Secondly, and much more importantly, when gary eventually gets out of prison his arsehole is going to be the size of a manhole cover.....
Charles
I think that's your mouth you must be talking about Paul.
You're obviously incapable of aruing on any intelligent level, so resort to verbal abuse.
You don't believe in unidentified flying objects; so presumably you can identify everything that flies.
Unidentified flying objects doesn't mean they are alien crafts; it means quite simply that they are unidentified.
Craig
I am saddened to see that the Home Secretary has bowed to pressure from the US to extradite Gary. As with many of the others who have commented here, I do not condone illegal access to other people's systems, but I also feel strongly that such systems should be properly protected against this kind of thing. The US military should have implemented appropriate security measures and in all that I have read about the case, it would definitely appear that they did not. It almost draws comparisons to honey pots in how easy it was for Gary to gain access and to be fair to him, better security would very likely have deterred him.
Most importantly, he should not have been extradited for this and in my opinion he is defintiely being made a scapegoat, in the US attempts to cover just how lacking their security was. Yes he did wrong, but without malice and what is happening here is disproportionate to his activities. I genuinely fear for his well being from here onwards as he will be swallowed up by the ever secretive US and I don't think that we will ever see or hear of him again. Our own government may just as well have signed his death warrant, as he will have no life from this point onwards. The arrogance and collective ego of the US government will see to that, as they try to save face at the expense of this poor man's life.
Our thoughts are with you Gary and this travesty of justice will not be forgotten.
Marc
It's complete bullshit. In fact Gary didn't *hack* the U.S. military computers just after 9/11, he was arrested in 2002 and he'd stopped a year previously to that so go figure.
Squall
Paul>>"First, there are *no* such things as UFO's - think about it - really does it make any sense at all ? No, didn't think so...."
Apart from what Charles has already said, I'll point out that the idea that there is no intelligent life anywhere else in a universe this size is laughably pathetic.
WTX
Gary McKinnon, i read about your stories of aliens and UFO's that are on this world.
Now you are in prison, you can't continue your research.
Wait more then 10 years, and you will know what i mean
Project 0 LIVES!!!!!!
WTX (Contact me at wolftankx@kabelfoon.net)
WTX
It was a good step of Gary for retrieving info about that what is so secret, think about Area 51 first. The US government said it doesn't excist, but if you look at satellite images, such as Google Earth (earth.google.com), you see something else
Project 0 will continue Gary's research..the rest is ''unknown''
WTX
WTX
There is still one thing...
I read about you, and it said you were using drugs at your research..so some stories look a bit fake for certain people, please notice that.
And another thing: When you are released, stay low...
WTX
Janis
Sir Arthur Greebe - Streebling left sent the message below.
The anti extradition demo he is referring to is taking place outside the Royal Courts of Justice, situated on the Strand in London. Details are on this website.
'This extradition is a travesty of justice and will haunt Tony Blair for years to come.
I am afraid our P.M. is merely a puppet of George Bush.
I urge all who can attend the Demo at the High Court on July 11.
Please be there.
Thank You'
Sir Arthur Grebe-Streebling
jane
Unbelievable this is happening. Same as when you visit a city after 27 years and notice all the beautiful old industrial architecture that was there is gone, replaced by modern monstrosities. Anycity, anywhere. And realise that the Child Support Agency is simply another tool to create war between men and women, instead of real education about respect and humanity etc etc.... Gary has done us all a favour in highlighting the lax security by the careless employees of the DOD. This is unbelievable, like so much else in 'our' world right now. Its not 'our' world, it is the world of those who control and manipulate. Those who are drunk on power and control.
jane
Sorry to keep going on, but all these things need to be linked. This extradition of Gary McKinnon is just the beginning, or the ending, of the most terrible things. Like when you realise your daughter is living in a fire risk death trap, a Leeds back to back, 2nd floor bedroom with no fire emergency escape. There are no laws preventing this landlord from doing this, why???
Same reason as this thing with Gary...its just unbelievable its come to this.
Janis
"Special Relationship"!
Our Government would have us believe that the new arrangements with the US are both beneficial and not unusual. In fact both of these assertions are quite wrong.
The US has bilateral extradition arrangements with 119 countries.
The overwhelming majority of these (116) provide for the establishment of a prima facie case by the US, and every single one of these 116 is fully reciprocal.
Approximately half of these arrangements further provide that "own nationals" need not be extradited.
In only two cases other than the UK (France and Ireland) is there not a requirement on the US to provide prima facie evidence, and in each of these Treaties, the incorporation of either article 6 (France) or article 7 (Ireland) of the European Convention on Extradition provides ample protections for Irish or French citizens accused of crimes which would be justiciable in their country.
In summary, therefore, even if the US were to ratify the new Treaty, which they realistically now have no incentive to do, our arrangements would place the rights of UK citizens below those of any other country in the world.
Absent ratification by the US Senate Foreign Relations Committee, we cannot even avail ourselves of some of the supposed benefits of the new Treaty in extraditing people from the US.
Is this really what the "special relationship" is meant to be about?
Below is a link to an analysis of the US worldwide extradition treaty network which clearly shows how other nations protect their own citizens:
http://www.friendsextradited.org/media/USExtraditionArrangements.doc
yo
Wow. All of you out there who think this guy shouldn't be punished have GOT to be kidding me! The simple fact that he accessed those systems--passwords or no passwords--is ILLEGAL. It's akin to trespassing. Give him a trial if you want to (even one in the UK), but the guy confessed! It would definitely be an easy case.
It's interesting to see people on here saying that he shouldn't be extradited. So, the UK is a place where people can hack another country's systems and face no punishment from the UK government? That puts the UK in the same class as Russia and China! If that's how we wish to categorize the UK, then so be it. Would some of you blokes be so kind as to set up an illegal mp3 server or an FTP site to distribute some pirated copies of MS Windows?
References to the US's poor track record with Guantanamo are fair, however the hipocrisy in advocating flouting international law in the case of the UK while condemning the US for it is stunning!
Paul
WTX - I think your medication is no longer offering you the protection you need from your delusional fantasies.
I suggest you make an appointment to see your psychiatrist ASAP !!!
To all you other dweebs who believe in sc-fi bullshit - answer this :
Don't you think its a bit odd that someone who could manage to develop technology that allows them to cross the vast distances of space would be so inept as to crash those same craft here on earth ?!?! Doesn't stack up does it ?
Go back to looking for 'secret hidden messages' in your X-Files DVD box-sets, you sad twats....
Rob Garcia
After having read one or two comments on here I must admit, I think that it is totally disgusting the fact that a person can be tried for a "crime" in a totally different country. I mean each country has its laws for a reason and they should be tried in the country they are resident in - I think this is another "American Judicial System Rules The World" story - it amazes me that the rest of the world allows them to feel that they have power over the rest of the world - what ever happened to free speech and equality? Equality appears to be a word that doesnt exist in their vocabulary.
In all honesty it should be the Network Administrators working for the Pentagon or the "NON" Security Forces that should be held for trial - they are being paid to do a job of protecting valuable información, information that is strictly confidential and it appears they arent doing a good job at it - imagine how much further information could be found out? What the Americans should be doing is receiving McKinnon with open arms and learn by their mistakes - Maybe Gary can help them do this (as it appears that they obviously arent capable).
FREE GARY MCKINNON!!!
WTX
Yo,
You are a bit right indeed, but answer this one first:
Why is the USA keeping so much secret to us?
WTX
Paul
WTX
Why ? Because they don't want you to get hold of all that funky alien technology, that's why...
Imagine all that power in the hands of a paranoid delusional like you - it doesn't bear thinking about does it ?
Now, about your medication - have you been back to your doctor about these increasingly powerful delusions you are having ?
WTX
The target of Project 0 is telling the all the people all over the world what is secret, not to recover alien technology and to probably use it...
And about the doctor advise, fuck you
WTX
U can better add me at MSN if you want to talk about it
wolftank__x@hotmail.com
Suit yourself...
WTX
fg
Just a reminder:
barbarian Canadian
Hey you british, all of you... IMAO,LOLOLOL, is these really hapaning??? In the 21st century, where England is the MOST respected country in the Europian Nation's who stand up for human rights and democracy. Giving up its OWN Citisen... for these????(is he murdered some one?), WOW , IMAO , LOL , you are such of covards , Im glod im NOT british.
Stu
I'm glod you're not British too
Andrew Milner
Allowing the USA to extradite British citizens for alleged crimes committed in the UK makes Britain look worse that a third-world country (figures). The scale of punishment handed down by US courts (possible 50 years for a bit of non-profitable hacking) falls under the heading of "cruel and unusual punishment”. What Mr. Gary McKinnon did was expose the venerability of a major area of US military software. They should be thanking him; it could so easily have been an enemy of the US. (Come to think of it, don’t we all fall into that category now?) Not like he was infecting our PC’s with a nasty virus. Unless you rank as a first class citizen (have a title, work for BA or the BBC or are related to an MP, graduated from Oxbridge), Britain will do sod all to help its citizens. You'd be better being a citizen of Luxembourg. What's it going to get to get the few remaining risk-takers off their ass and seeking their fortune in the colonies? Somewhere without an extradition treaty, preferably. Leave the country to the risk-adverse and immigrants; they deserve each other.
skenn_ie
Gaol him, certainly, but not in the US of A, to whom, democracy, and justice are things that they believe others should have. NO to extradition. NO to America's version of democracy and free speech. NO to America's persuit of world domination.
dave
Am I the only one who thinks Gary looks like Richard Ramirez?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/images/ramirez190.jpg
Steve
No, I think Gary looks like someone going on a long 'holiday'.
Ian
Gary should go live with OBL, then the merkuns will never find him!
Sad story, but a lesson to all how the real world works.
Hideki
Hihi
It seems to me that he has actually hacked nothing...
Walking into an open system is not hacking, it's bad security on their part, the fact this government is willing to hand him over (and presumably our sovereignty with him) to the tender mercies of the American justice system speaks for itself.
The extradition of the Natwest three is also highly suspect, we are not the 51st state, we should not fight their wars, nor should we blindly hand over our people...
Remember how long it took us to get our citizens out of Guantanamo?
This isn't a level playing field so let's not play until it is -.-
Brownbear
Bloody hell! Don't send him to the USA. Land of oppression and injustice! WTF! What is the British Government thinking? Gary, survive and expose these guys!
John Atkins
Whether tragic events touch your family personally or are brought into your home via newspapers and television, you can help children cope with the anxiety that violence, death, and disasters can cause.
Listening and talking to children about their concerns can reassure them that they will be safe. Start by encouraging them to discuss how they have been affected by what is happening around them. Even young children may have specific questions about tragedies. Children react to stress at their own developmental level.
The Caring for Every Child's Mental Health Campaign offers these pointers for parents and other caregivers:
* Encourage children to ask questions. Listen to what they say. Provide comfort and assurance that address their specific fears. It's okay to admit you can't answer all of their questions.
* Talk on their level. Communicate with your children in a way they can understand. Don't get too technical or complicated.
* Find out what frightens them. Encourage your children to talk about fears they may have. They may worry that someone will harm them at school or that someone will try to hurt you.
* Focus on the positive. Reinforce the fact that most people are kind and caring. Remind your child of the heroic actions taken by ordinary people to help victims of tragedy.
* Pay attention. Your children's play and drawings may give you a glimpse into their questions or concerns. Ask them to tell you what is going on in the game or the picture. It's an opportunity to clarify any misconceptions, answer questions, and give reassurance.
* Develop a plan. Establish a family emergency plan for the future, such as a meeting place where everyone should gather if something unexpected happens in your family or neighborhood. It can help you and your children feel safer.
If you are concerned about your child's reaction to stress or trauma, call your physician or a community mental health center.
Q
i'm from trh US and I don't trust my government to give him a fair trial.
they want to spy and invade everyones privacy, but it's a crime to check on what they've been up to? this is very very bad.