Free Gary McKinnon

Gary, very sorry to hear that you are possibly being extradited to *spits* America to face trial for a crime you committed on UK turf. This constitutes a total failure on the part of the British legal system, and goes to show just how much the *spits* Americans actually rule the roost. I'm not a hacker, but if I was, I'd be hacking the bastards right now!! I'm f*ck*ng angry!

Is there a way that we can show our discontent at this ruling? Should we demonstrate? I think so! Please mail me if there is any way that I can make my voice heard.

Jesus, the British legal system really is Mr. Bush's lap-dog.

I'm up for demonstrating, too.

Lets hope your appeal passes. All the best mate.

What a joke ruling. Whatever happened to our legal system?

Good luck with the appeal

This is fantastic news! Whilst I am no fan of The Great Satan (thanks for the war, Bush!), I am also sick of the increased cost and aggravation caused by hackers, even those that try to justify their, frankly, illegal actions by some kind of public interest motive. Doubtless if he was convicted in the UK, he would receive a paltry sentence that would act as no deterrent to anybody. The posters above who say the UK legal system is a joke are right as he probably would have got a tiny fine here. Instead I look forward to the day he is locked up in America for a very long time. If it stops one other fool tinkering with my network, then it will be worth it. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

A truly despicable politically motivated judgement. What with the US Neocon pressure to have Jack Straw removed as OUR foreign minister and now this! It would seem we sent our troops to Iraq to remove a brutal, corrupt regime, only to have Bush & Blair install one here.

Freedom, Justice & Democracy…. Yeah right!

Our prayers are with you Gary

To the poster above:

I agree that Gary should be punished;motives aside it was still a crime. However, this man is facing up to seventy years in prison alongside murderers and rapists.

He didn't cause damage to the computers he gained access to, the $5000's worth per computer claimed will just be for the labour of making sure it doesn't happen again, which should have been the case in the first place. So in reality he hasn't done any damage, just shown the incompetence of the administrators working for the government.

Be under no illusion that whatever punishment he gets will stop any other cracker or script-kiddie around the world. If anything it will make others try the same.

If "fools" are tinkering with your network then I assume it's your job to make it secure enough so they cannot, instead of punishing Gary in the hopes that others will stop trying.

Funny that an American represents his great country in such a way when US citizens do not get extradited to the UK whatever they've done. I don't agree with the Gary's daft actions, but he did what he did in the UK and should be subject to our laws - which, whilst not perfect, are generally just and proportional. If he gets sent to the US, this will be another crass example of their increasing stranglehold on the world and to a justice system riddled with political appointees and "god bless the USA" to the core, whatever the truth of the matter. Strange their internation justice does not affect their citizens - remember Bhopal and Guantanamo? Where are Liberty now, or are this man's rights not important?

"Best wishes with your appeal on UK mainland"

Best wishes with your appeal on UK mainland.

@ : John Shilitoe - we do not think that Gary McKinnon will get a fair trial in the USA - the Eastern District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, is the one recently in the news where Zacharias Moussaoui was sentenced to life, on Sept 11 2001 related charges. even though he had the perfect alibi as he was in custody at the time.

It sits between the Pentagon and the CIA / NSA, and most of its jury pool are subject to peer pressure or implied threats to their own or their families careers etc.
since most of them work for the US Federal Government or the Military.

What evidence have you got that any long prison term for unauthorised computer access has ever acted as an effective deterrent ?

It is the likelyhood of getting caught quickly which is the only deterrent to "hackers", but Gary and others appear to have been roaming around the US Military networks unhindered for over 2 years.

If Gary had been prosecuted in the UK back in 2002 when he was arrested, a British Judge would have imposed reporting restrictions and held the evidence sessions in camera, i.e. in secret, and none of the details of the utter incompetence of senior US Military officers and civilian bureaucrats would have emerged.

This guy isn't some sort of "hero", he's a sad prick who should have got himself a girlfriend. This year's hacker is next year's virus writer, scum of the earth.

It seems incredible (then perhaps again, not) that a UK citizen can be considered for extradition in circumstances when they have not even set foot in the country where the offence took place; I agree with other posters that the huge amount of money is really the cost of repairing a system that was obviously defective in the first place. I won`t respond to the comments of the US citizen who is delighted at the judge`s decision, but it is very peculiar that US citizens are rarely extradited to other countries to face trial. I sincerely hope that the Home Secretary rules that the case must be tried in the UK.

@ ColinW - err.. you obviously have not read much about this particular case - Gary was arrested whilst using his long term girlfriend's computer.

He is not a teenager, he is now 40 years old.

Computer virus writers are not usually the same people who gain unauthorised access to computer systems in the way that Gary is alleged to have done.

He is neither a hero, nor entirely innocent, but he does not deserve to be tried unfairly in the USA, rather than in the UK, and to be treated more harshly than murderers and terrorists.

Write to our MPs and let them know that we the Brits do not want to be part of this American legal system.

I'm more scared of our currency being replaced by dollars than the EU.

Democracy is long dead here.

Gary, you knew that hacking in military systems was wrong. You got caught. You say you did no harm. My advice is say "Sorry" and work with the US military to help secure the systems that are designed to proctect us all from the real nutters - criminals and religous zealots. Don't mock the Americans - they are our true friends. You might care to visit the American graveyards of WW2 where thousands of boys of your age died "shoulder to shoulder" with British lads in a fight against tyrany. It may have been 65 years ago - but mocking Americans today mocks those boys' memory. They died so you would have the freedom to go out about your daily life without fear or hinderance. You goofed. Plain and Simple. But your life is in your hands. Use your brain and intellect to the benefit of our community. Put together a deal that demonstrates you are genuinely sorry and encourage everyone to avoid a further trial. No preosecutor in the US is going to refuse a great deal.

This is crazy! How can it be that a so called "hacker" could have caused that amount a damage to each of the Windows based computers? The computers don't cost that much new and I';m pretty sure that software could just be reinstalled. Backups anybody? Also, it's strange that thats the amount of damage needed to be done to a machine to get an extradition. :S

I personally think that any organisation that leaves it's doors unlocked (the machines had blank passwords) is just asking for trouble. Nice job Mr network administator!

@ Ricky Dee - it is not that the US Military did not have people who knew how to secure their systems, they obviously did and still do - they were simply ignored.

It was the incompetent senior management and political leadership which allowed the insecurities to remain undetected and exploited for years.

There is no chance that the US Military would want or would need Gary to "help them" in any technical consultancy role.

"No prosecutor in the US is going to refuse a great deal."

No civilian prosecutor can guarantee any sort of "deal", when there is the chance that a Military Tribunal could be invoked.

The Guantanamo Bay scandal, "extraordinary rendition" torture flights etc. have poisoned the reputation that the US Justice system used to have, as being reasonably fair.

Hes no hero, so hes not a malicious hacker? Hes a hacker. That information is private. It couldnt be stumbled across by accident. It took forethought to purposely go into those restricted places time and time again. Now lets say a forgein terrorist hacked into our governments top secret info on our computers and was arrested. They then said 'Sorry I was just curious!'
Would you expect them to sent here for trial? I sure would.
If he had been on a PC in america should he have stood trial over there? Of course, the crime is still the same.
He has committed a crime against Americans, not the UK. Yes we have laws to prevent hackers here but Id assume because his target PC was not in the UK a lot of the 'extras' will not be applicable.
I disagree with Americas 'We rule everything' attitude, I against their forgein policys and current President... but in this case I think they are right. We would be right to extradite him. He must have realised the risks.

Besides all that, like many, in the UK he would get nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

I just have no sympathy for anyone who thinks they have the right to act illegally.

People seem to have overlooked exactly WHY Gary was hacking. He was trying to obtain information that should be made available to everyone, namely that relating to free energy and free energy devices (and, by definition, to the possibility that life forms other than our own exist throughout the universe). These are ALL universal concerns. They affect EVERYONE. To lock someone up because they have tried to find out the truth about these issues (admittedly in an 'illegal' manner, but in a totally free society there should be other roads made available) is outrageous. It's a crime, all right. A crime against humanity. Free Gary. And force the governments of the world to reveal what they know. Now!

Just read about Gary's case. This is an outrage and shows the iron fist behind Amerika's claims to be spreading democracy. Gary did something silly and should be fined that is it. Good luck mate!

ok i go with the guy that said this...!!!
People seem to have overlooked exactly WHY Gary was hacking. He was trying to obtain information that should be made available to everyone, namely that relating to free energy and free energy devices (and, by definition, to the possibility that life forms other than our own exist throughout the universe). These are ALL universal concerns. They affect EVERYONE. To lock someone up because they have tried to find out the truth about these issues (admittedly in an 'illegal' manner, but in a totally free society there should be other roads made available) is outrageous. It's a crime

there is a very valid point to this why are the public kept away as we ALL know the goverments for generations have hidden info from us so who are the goverments in years gone by when the land was run solely by king & queen there wasnt as many problems and since goverments have got there claw into society look whats happened...!!! this realy is the middle of the end....not the beggining..wake up public see whats happening to our world & how these so called goverments let our world DIE..OMFG
keiththebeast@yahoo.co.uk

Some very interesting comments on here. I'm not going to start a flamewar by commenting on the ones I don't agree with, but there are some people on here that need to re-think their attitudes!! Gary is a UK citizen that committed a crime on UK soil, that should be the end of the matter!

I wonder what would have happened if he had committed this crime in one of the European countries where hacking isn't actually illegal? Would the Americans simply have grabbed him as another kidnapped foreign "terrorist"? Or can he be classed as an "enemy combatant"?

@ John Shilitoe, your comment was simply daft! If people tinker with your network, do your job properly and stop them, don't moan and hope that Gary's treatment will deter others. Personally I believe that America's behaviour towards the rest of the world is what causes hackers and the like to target them. They basically make their own bed, and don't want to lie in it.... Why target anywhere less deserving?

I'll be writing to my MP at the very least about this miscarriage of justice. Don't get me wrong, he committed a crime and should pay for it, but in the correct manner, and under the supervision of the UK legal system!

So it should be up to every individual to take it upon themselves to get this information. Did he know it was there before hacking? It should be up to governments to make this information. Not bedroom hackers.
He SAYS he found information on UFOs and free energy.. so what was to stop him screen dumping it? Writing it down (I realise it was Java streamed so he couldnt save it). What was the point of his excercise if he was just gonna keep the information to himself?

Data crime is still crime, If the US let him off with a fine... what message does that send out? As long as your not a terrorist we dont mind? For all they know he could have been selling the US military secrets to anyone asking... he sure as hell didnt make these 'free energy devices' available for us to look at did he.

@ Teddy - "Yes we have laws to prevent hackers here" - our Computer Misuse Act 1990, for all its obvious need of reform to make it more applicable in the 21st Century, has worldwide scope, and has been used to prosecute people in the UK for computer intrusions overseas, including the USA.

There have never been any extraditions into the UK of foreign computer criminals, the policy and principle has always been that it is better to try and sentence people in the country whee they committed their computer crimes from and were arrested, and where the computer forensic evidence has been seized.

Under the UK-USA Extradition treaty, which the disgraced ex-Home Secretary David Blunkett brought in, together with his other blunders, the USA has not provided any prima facie evidence (that does not mean having to prove a watertight case, just showing some reesonable evidence which can be challenged in court) against Gary McKinnon.

Nothing has been shown to any court (even in the USA) to substantiate the alleged million dollars of "damage".

Their November 2002 indictments claimed that "no secret information" was compromised by his activities.

Surely it must have been a political decision by the spin doctors to delay the extradition process beyond both the US Presidential and UK General Elections ? The US camapign revolved around the alleged military leadership and competence of the two candiadates, and a clear case of utter military incompetence even after September 11th 2001, on President Bush's watch as leader, would have been politically embarassing.

I don't support hacking. Gary should be tried here in the UK though and not in the United States. We roll over like a puppy every time the US asks for anything, even though a US citizen is very much more difficult to extradite back here. We are fools if we think this makes us more secure - it doesn't and if Gary the hacker goes there, he will never come back here. Give him two years inside here to teach him a lesson, but sending him tothe States is a travesty.

Right or wrong, he is a British citizen so should be tried in Britain. End of story.

'Tiny Blur' is nothing but a poodle to George Bush. When the illegal pResident says jump, Blur jumps. This then goes done the line. Until we have a Pm that stands up to the USA this kind of injustice will continue. OK Gary did wrong but he should be tried here in the UK. However, I doubt that will ever happen because of Bush's hold over 'Blur'.

As to the guy who want's the US to hammer foolish Gary to discourage people from hacking into his network, why not get off your arse and secure it mate. Buy a firewall, configure it properly and do your job.... Just like the American military should have done their job. How ridiculous that in this day and age some Walter Mitty hacker type can waltz into their network without a password and wander about the filing systems - you couldn't write it in a comedy script could you - people would dismiss the idea as too unfeasible.

FREE GARY McKINNON!!

Why is it that most people forget why he hacked into army navy and nasa files ?

Most people go on about all the damage he caused or that the only reason he done it was to mess up their computer system. Now HE knows for sure that the US Govt HAS formed a cover up on ufo's. He was hackin into their systems over a period of 2 YEARS on a 56k modem, I mean come on, i got 4mb broadband. Imagine the possibilities!!!

Someone has to make some FREE GARY McKINNON!! tee shirts.

I doubt we'd have seen the justice system bend over so quickly had it been Russian Chinese French Turkish etc authorites demanding his extradition under indentical circumstances?

They'd have been rightly told "we have laws to deal with him over here thanks"

seems as so often these days god blessed America is an exception to the rule.

He did wrong but there's no way he should be sent to the US to face a trial that would see him (possibly) sent down as a terrorist. There's no way he's a terrorist. In fact, the US military should employ him to sort out their computer security. Can you think of anyone better placed to do it?!

gary!, you broke the law!...im a computer man,and you know as well as i do,you hack into someones computer,you get caught,then you face the consequences!....stop whining,be a man!,and take your medecine!...your not a hero gary,your just a hacker....who got caught!!!....cheers scotsguy

Great point about Bhopal, Az, the Indian government seem powerless to bring international criminal charges against a US Company that poisoned an entire town, yet won't even clean up the mess, let alone compensate its victims. Until the Land of the "Free" stops cherry picking which International Laws and [Geneva]conventions it wishes to abide by then Gary should not be extradited. Let the American empire overstretch itself until it collapses just like the Roman empire before. I hope I live to see that day!

if you have a home network if you've any sense you make it secure. if a country like america can't be bothered to secure it's network it deserves all it gets. how many terrorist etc have also got into a unsecure network belonging to the US goverment? but I suppose if George W is more interested in catching fish what do you expext.

Gary did something wrong but in the UK so should be tried here or given a job with the goverments IT agency

The law is made to serve the people. The people are not made to serve the law. The law is made to bring truth and justice to society. Where governments err and the law is mute, people must take up the slack. Do not be blinded by convention, keep focused on intention.
Remember why the laws exist and you will achieve clarity.

I don't agree that the US should police the world, but in this case it is a US matter.

I am glad he is not going to be a strain on our prison system. He knew he was doing wrong so I hope he pays the price.

I think that I (and most normal people) would hope that if someone in the US broke into our defence system that they came here for the trial. How can we (as a foriegn power) expect to know what impact he had on the US systems, just like we would not expect the US to know our systems. Put the boot on the other foot and see how it fits then.

Being an U.S citizen I can totally see an over-the- top response by an american court in the post 9/11 world we live in.
The problem is that the court will not see the difference between a guy who bascially playing x-files hacker and someone who was out to willfully cause damage "I think it probably never occured to the guy invading a system would amount to a dollar cost".I have little faith in our legal system to see things in shades of grey then just black and white.
Seems like the U.S wants this guy pretty bad,probably did find something in there,enough to want the guy here under U.S supervision.

Funny how you remove comments that mention coldfire phobos & the agents of a hostile power along with the labour party computer hack.
why would that be?

Maybe get Ken Loach to make a film about it...

Just ask MPs and Beckett how many Americans have been or will ever be extradited here. (Or is it the case that we signed the extradition treaty and America didn't?) ...

Last night on Newsnight the US Ambassador told the world that the London Congestion Charge is really a Tax, so their staff don't pay it. They walk all over everybody.

Good Luck.

During the first quarter of 1997 I was approached by a member of the FBI in washington & asked if I would infiltrate a "dangerous" group of hackers calling themselves "agents of a hostile power".
I was told that these hackers had been accessing US military computers & the FBI were looking for help in gathering evidence against them.
As a result of this approach i began attending meetings of alt.2600 at cyberia in manchester.
I befriended a chap known as "the doctor" & another known as "Phobos". Following conversations with them over a number of weeks/months I became aware that they were NOT terrorists & neither were they dangerous..I was told that they had attempted to report major faults on security issues with high level computer systems & had had their lives made hell for doing so. ( a little like shooting the messenger).
I reported these things to the FBI who arranged a meeting with the computer crime squad in london....one of the officers I met had the second name "Onions"...We met...they got drunk..during our conversations I indicated that I did not believe this group were dangerous & told the officers that the group had attempted to report the flaws they had found..The officers response staggered me & went something like this.."we dont care wot dey ave dun...we are coppers & our job is to lock em up"...The officers then expressed their lack of interest in computers & carried on drinking.
The following day I had a follow up call from the FBI..."Hi ****...how did the meeting go?.....not very well i replied....you've sent me to meet a pair of pratts one of them called Onions who doesnt know his onions....oh! came the reply..Can you work with them....I replied no & said that i could not work with brain dead pillocks...the conversation ended.
I went back to social engineering & phreaking...The police continued their folly.

good luck! Gary

To all the people who accuse the British justice system of bending over for the US I think you should take the time to read the judgement.

Gary McKinnon, by his own admission, broke the law. The question of course is whether he caused the damage he is accused of; something I doubt any of you can be certain of either way. That said, the issue of his extradition is quite simple; it comes down to 'speciality'. He can only be extradited for crimes that exist in both the UK and the US and, if extradited for such crimes, can only be prosecuted for the same (i.e. he would not be charged in the US for crimes that were not also crimes in the UK). However the fact that sentences for such crimes in the US are much higher than in the UK is irrelevant from the legal perspective of a valid extradition.

In sum the whole thing will come down to speciality; if it is found then Gary Mckinnon will be validly extradited.

Given that there are probably still a good many people still trying to find their way in to these various US networks. Why do those extraditing him think that this will stop as a result?

If anything there is a far greater risk of retaliation in my view. It does make me wonder if American are following China's approach here rather than a democratic one.

As far as ease of network access is concerned these people are right when they say that lack of security is the problem. It's the responsibility of the Org. Sys Admins to secure their networks, no one elses. If they get hacked they should fix it rather than blaming other people. Hackers are here to stay, protect yourself against them. As a Sys Admin I don't accept Sys Admins putting the blame entirely with the hacker, there is no such thing as an easy life anymore when it comes to internet enabled networks.

As far as I am concerned it could just as easily have been a 13 year old school boy rather than a man in his late 30's early 40's. Would they threaten him with a 70 year sentence?

It isn't a question of whether it is right or wrong to hacker, it's a question of what is a just way to deal with a hacker. Using computers to take human life is one thing, gathering information on UFO's is quite another.

@ CH - "The question of course is whether he caused the damage he is accused of; something I doubt any of you can be certain of either way" - of course you can't be certain, because no prima facie evidence of the amount of alleged "damage" has been presented to a British court, and will not be presented to the Home Secretary either.

"Speciality" is meant to guarantee that charges unrelated to the ones you have been extradited for are not sprung on you once you are in foreign custody.

There is simply no worthwhile guarantee that this will not happen in this case, as there is nothing signed by anyone from the US Government, that Gary will not be subjected to Federal or Military justice once the the civilian court system has him in their power.

I am gutted for you Gary. Have followed your case since the start and its' a tragedy and an indication of what our justice system stands for. I know you're not the only guy interested in hidden technology, and as such, i hope your cause is continued by another.

We have no proof that Gary didnt cause damage/crash/steal from US computers. The FBI do.
P'haps those commands gary issued to the machines (you know Gary, the ones that disconnected you)in the states caused them to crash (hence the disconnection Gary).
By Gary's own admissions he accessed computers without permission. He also got disconnected a LOT. I suspect the disconnects were Gary crashing the machines. If I'm right ( and I am ) Gary was causing damage whilst on a "power trip"

Shame on those who cheer the idea of Gary standing "trial" in America! I don't care how much I despise hackers (and I do - they've caused me mountains of trouble), no one deserves the American "justice" system under The Patriot Act and other concomitant terrorism-related initiatives.

There is such a thing as human rights, and Gary will not have them in America. Take this from an American who has seen examples of search and seizure without a warrant, stifling of free speech through intimidation tactics, indefinite detainment without a trial, etc. And these things have been done to American citizens!

You know, the further we get from September 11th, 2001, the less the "terrorists" look like extremists/fundamentalists and the more they resemble the average Joe.

We've been duped! Don't let Britain get duped as well. You were once an "evil" Empire. Don't become the new Empire's bitch.

the worst thing about this is the fact that our government will happily extradite someone to the US to face 70 years in jail, knowing perfectly well that were the roles reversed they would not.

Gary should be tried (and jailed) in the UK, not at some US show trial.

First off - all of you that have posted such negative comments on the United States and our justice system - FUCK YOU!

I have had it with listening to all of your contrived bullshit. You people are nutjobs of the highest degree.

And fuck Gary for what he said about the state of Virginia, which happens to be where I reside.

You bunch of Limey pricks can kiss my ass. Good thing we kicked your ass throughly and booted your fucked up English ways out of our country 200 years ago.

ok, somehow the posted by names for the last two comments seem to have been switched. Its a minor point, bt I dont want my name on that retards comment.

ok, now i think the issue is with my pc, if so, i appologise for clogging this up with pointless posts.

This decision, while technically correct for a magistrate to make, is another example of the shambles New Labour has made of the common law. Only the Appeal Court can decide points of law. There can be no doubt that demanding a citizen's arrest and deportation without presenting any evidence is in breach of Britain's obligations under European Human Rights legislation. A country that uses torture and the death penalty as routine does not not qualify as a safe venue for a fair trial or a guarantee that the rule of law will prevail. An injustice has not only been done, but also seen to be done. The royal prerogative has fallen into the wrong hands. We now have more legal rights as Europeans than we do as British citizens.

If you commit a crime in the US Embassy in London, you will be tried in an American court, as the US Embassy is legally American soil.

The computers Gary McKinnon illegally accessed were on American soil, and he should thus be extradited to the United States to be tried.

If you want to break another country's laws, you have to be willing to face the consequences. It's as simple as that.

From:

Theo, UK Citizen, and supporter of Gary McKinnon's extradition to the United States.

This shout out goes to Chris, who refers to "contrived bullshit". I won't overload this with countless references, but you might want to check out the following: http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/facts.html.

We kicked Britain's ass out over 200 years ago because they were an oppressive Empire that didn't respect the basic human rights enumerated in our founding documents. Does it make sense to become an Empire ourselves?

And this comment does not come from a Brit, but from a good ol' boy from the Commonwealth of Kentucky. My family fought for the Confederacy, beeotch!

There is nowhere to go or hide anymore:
Echelon 0wn5 You.
Tempest's Record You.
GCHQ Tracks You.
Judges Screw You.
The Pentagon Plots Against You.

Or, At Least, They Think They Do.

The U.K. Is To Be Renamed The U.S.A.(2)

So, my message to the Feds, Judges and Murderers of Death Row in Virginia (the institution not the convicts), if you're reading this:
Fuck You and Leave Our Patriot's / Citizen's ALONE!

Good Luck Gary!

Slight problem with the link from the previous post: http://action.aclu.org/reformthepatriotact/facts.html

Desde españa mi más sicnero apoyo, a un gurú, un maestro de la informática

Here's an interesting question: The UK Government aims to introduce compulsory ID cards which may encode biometric data such as fingerprints and iris scans on the card - and this data wil also be held on a 'secure' !-) database in the UK. If it is so easy to access data on what should be the most 'secure' military network in the US - maintained by some of the brightest people on the planet...what hope in hell does the UK government have of securing citizens' data against hacking? I say that Gary has brought welcome publicity to the weaknesses of any information storage system: The UK Government should be hanging on to him with a view to appointing him consultant in the design of the ID card database! What do you think Gary? (Good luck by the way!)

Gary must not be allowed to become a victim of the USA's constructed War on Terror/Long War. The US will want to make Gary suffer to satisfy the US peoples lust for revenge against anyone, never mind if they are innocent.

@ Chris - Please try and keep this discussion thread polite.

Are you are trying to influence the Home Secretary by providing evidence that neither Gary nor anybody else from the UK extradited to a court in Virginia would face a fair trial ?

We like most American people, but is seems that the current Government is intent on turning former friends into enemies around the world.

Quote Michael H: "what hope in hell does the UK government have of securing citizens' data against hacking? "

Good Question.
The answer is very little without the help of ethical hackers.
Gary does not appear to be an ethical hacker. The problem with obtaining access to things you shouldnt is that *most* people get a little power crazy & do not have enough restraint NOT to alter the system OR read emails & forget to set them back to unread OR kill an account simply because "the dudes name was the same as THAT git that used to break my glasses at school" etc etc.

I believe the US will be able to prove gary caused tens of thousands of dollars in damage to machines. Gary seems to be using the argument he couldnt have caused that much moneys worth of damage since a computer only costs a couple of hundred BUT gary has forgotten that software can cost 100's of Thousands of dollars. Thats Garys downfall, concrete thinking.

@ C.O - why can't they prove that in a British court ?

@ Theodore Bell - most wars have been fought precisely to prevent the citizens of one country from being subjected to the laws of another one.

Quote FG: @ C.O - why can't they prove that in a British court ?

I'm sure they could.
BUT. They dont have too.
The most serious offences took place in the USA so it seems sensible to hold trail there with the possibility that should Gary be found guilty he faces futher charges in the UK upon his release from prison in the USA.

Just watched sky news - Gary clearly stated that he had commited the crime - saying i was "curious" can be no defence

I was curious whether my car would do over 100 miles an hour - so don't take my licenese away

I was curious to see if I stabbed the victim whether they would die ....

and so on.

Frankly if you do something you know to be illegal - don't be surprised that maybe, just maybe justice will catch up with you.

Oh and the other rule in life - don't piss the americans off - they WILL come for you.

I'm afraid if Mr Gary McKinnon is extradited to the United States he WILL suffer speaking from experiences several years ago.
www.MikesCasinoBlog.com
www.MikesNewsBlog.com

Maybe he should have thought about that BEFORE breaking the law in the US and the UK

Zero sympathy.

Yeppers! garys defence does seem rather feeble.
It strikes me that garys defence team are getting "money for old rope".
it seems to me that garys best option since he has hung himself by his own petard is to attempt to shorten the extradition against him by attempting a bargain for lesser charges. Of course this is not really in the interest of his solicitors so unless gary uses his own mind is unlikely to happen.

I hope everything works out for you Gary. To think the justice system in the UK will actually protect it's citizens is a joke. My biggest fear in fact is that if you get tried in this country, the courts just aren't equipped with the knowledge, experience or expertise to do the charge justice.

Not only is the 'High Tech Crime Unit' at the Met (and elsewhere) understaffed and underfunded, insufficient protection and advice can be given as legal representation because lawyers don't understand the intricate nature of computer networks and security.

I was arrested in November under the Computer Misuse Act for 'unauthorised access and modification of computer systems' even though I was the System Administrator for the company that accused me at the time. Under caution I was interviewed and told to use 'laymans terms' when discussing my actions. So I couldn't give a real account of what happened because the investigating officers don't understand it. In addition, I have had 8 computers seized and examined and since I'm a self employed consultant and need those PCs, I've been unable to work and am close to having my home repossessed. The cops don't understand that the only part of a PC that holds information is the hard disk, and that once it is imaged the hardware could be returned.

If they don't understand even this basic principle, how can I rest easy thinking justice will be served?

It scares me that in my situation I could actually be put on trial for this - not because there is sufficient evidence (to someone with technical knowledge) but because the Police and CPS (and to a large degree my legal representation) don't have a sufficient level of understanding.

Then...to be tried in front of a jury of people off the street that also don't understand the issues involved...

In summary, even if Gary's case was clear cut, which it isn't, I would still have my doubts that real justice would be served in this country or the USA.

I really hope everything works out ok for you - it must be a really scary and hard time for you and you have my most sincere sympathies.

Unfortunately Gary just admitted his guilt on national TV - the rest of it now is just a formality.

He will be going to the US

He will be doing time.

The reason the rest of us arent in the same situation is because sensibly enough - we don't go poking our fingers in American military systems.

Interestingly even if he hadn't managed to gain access - just trying or "knocking on the door" as it's known is illegal.

It's pretty clear cut.

Have been following this story for the past few months and I have to say I'm appalled at the ruling. As has already been mentioned, it only goes to show what a farce the British justice system is.

Wishing you all the best with the appeal Gary - you don't deserve any of this.

Urm ... GUILTY - not quite sure what you lot don't understand - this isn't hard to grasp !

This is about what is right and wrong not the law

Just want to say - we wnet to war over oil people have died for oil and there is free alternatives out there then its not gary who should be in jail but the PM and president that are withholding the possiblity of world peace for there won benefits. As to all of you who say that he deserves it I think you should be ashamed that you will let people die for people to profit yet if a hacker like Gary has found there is no need for war you say he is breaking the law. Explain that to me and the millions that are dying GOOD LUCK GARY!!!

I dont see anyone complaining about the thai authorities locking up gary glitter for the dreadful things he is accused of.

Different crime - same thing - UK citizen commits crime abroad - the authorities in that foreign country bring the weight of the law to bear on individual.

If it's a case of what's right and wrong - gary admits he did it - clearly it's right that he be punished for the wrong he commited.

It would appear that the US is less interested in getting justice and more inclined to setting an example of Gary.
Though it's usually corperate America flexing it's muscles to set legal precedents and scare potential law breakers the motivation is essentially the same.

The UK courts will fold, now and always..

I hope the extradition fails Gary.

If I leave the front door of my house open, the law says any squatter who walks through and lives in my house, is entitled to stay there - legally I can't kick them out. Similarly if I dont lock all the doors to my computer, then I should expect somebody to access my computer and the same law should apply.

Yes Gary did do something really stupid, walking through the open doors of a military computers, however Gary did not really 'break through the security' on their computers as claimed, and Gary did not cause any damage.

Exaggerating the extent of damage is just the actions of a very embarassed and humiliated government, realising the weaknesses in their own security.

We know Gary is not entirely innocent but he is quite right to be concerned about being extradited to a country that seems to feel that it can suspend the rule of law in order to best fit the fear-mongering 'everyone that's not with us is against us', "we'll get the terr'rists" mentality.

Perhaps if the US didn't have such a ghastly recent history this wouldn't be a problem. But the fact is that noone outside the US is ignorant of Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, the foreign torture flights - you name it. And the type of people currently running the Pentagon, NSA, CIA and indeed Whitehouse are hardly grounds for giving the US justice system the benefit of any doubt whatsoever.

We know these people have little or no regard for equal human rights. We know these people will happily bend, ignore or entirely circumvent their own laws to suit their own needs. We know that innocents have been mistreated, tortured or killed during this administration's watch.

It's also pretty reasonable to suggest that Gary McKinnon is pretty harmless, and didn't actually manage to do any real damage to the world's biggest military and technical power. This argument can not be countered in British courts since the U.S. authorities have no presented British courts with any evidence.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if us Brits could still trust Americans to practise what they preach then we wouldn't have a problem sending him over for his wrist-slapping. But sadly we can't. And we don't want to see another British subject subjected to media-friendly kangaroo courts that do little more than to quench the american right's thirst for heads to roll - whether they're the right heads or not.

I have no problem with him being fairly prosecuted. However we simply can't trust the United States to fairly prosecute him any more. His charges are likely to be inflated, dramatised and exaggerated - in fact if you listen to the hype we know this to be the case already. Quoting one of his prosecutors: "the biggest military computer hack of all time"
Riiiiight. Just like Richard Reid was an elite Al Qaeda special agent, Moussaoui was a criminal mastermind and Saddam Hussein had deadly global threat anthrax super-powers.

It's very difficult for us Brits to trust people that say stuff like this, even when they're supposed to be representing your biggest ally.

If the real threats are regarded as uncatchable, untreatable or inexplicable - i.e. Osama, Kim Jong Il, Sudanese government etc. - and the passers-by, hangers-on and wannabe anti-Americans are treated as serious threats, absolutely nothing is being done to improve US security.

I'd just like the US authorities to stop vilifying relatively harmless nutters (no offense So1o) and to instead focus on the real serious threats, which I accept may be a little more complicated and a little harder to media manage.

Until then it's probably safest for trans-Atlantic relations if British subjects are tried in British courts whether or not the U.S. considers them terr'rists.

This judgement be damned - I for one accept no guarantees offered by U.S. authorities right now.

Typical american pressure they make us attack a country for weapons that never existed not then extradite a freedom fighter.

I say something needs to be done - suggestions

@ R0bster - the case you cite is one where someone was arrested tried and convicted for a physical offence in that country - there were no cross border issues at all.

It is not the same as an extradition case.

This is not a simple binary question of guilt or innocence, it is about British sovereignty, and the proportionality of justice.

Sure - because Corporate and government systems never have a warning to say only authorised users may access those systems or be prosecuted.

Unfortunately ignorance of the law is no defence.

Even so he clearly knew what he was doing was wrong.

The worse thing is on the TV he said that he couldnt have done any damage because he only had a 56k modem - not a broadband connection - I nearly wet myself laughing.

Are system administrators in U.S. to face charges? If not why not? Surely they are guilty of gross negligence if they do not even bother to set an admin password, and i speak as someone who has only owned a computer for 1 year, even i know password protection is vital, yet these are supposedly top people working for Nasa, USAF etc!!

The US would be better served by talking with Gary & trying to make their systems more secure as a result.

He should be tried in the UK as 21st century "justice" U.S. style is a joke!!

Eye - sorry missed your post.

Right so if Gary had come back to the UK ( as he appeared to be trying to do ) he wouldn't have been extradited back to Thailand - I don't think so.

The offence in both cases took place in a foreign country - the difference being the person who committed the offence was present in one case - not in the other.

Why shouldnt he go back to the country and stand trial for the offence he committed ? Can't think of one solitary reason.

I agree with almost everyone on this site. An extradition for Gary is a complete travesty and we as a nation should not stand for it.

If I got into a fight in america, I'd be tried in america, if I got caught hacking in the UK, I'd expect to be tried in the UK.

America CANNOT continue to police the world in it's own interest. If there is a way we can help, let us know!

@r0bster

"The worse thing is on the TV he said that he couldnt have done any damage because he only had a 56k modem - not a broadband connection - I nearly wet myself laughing."

You nearly wet yourself laughing because someone hasn't got the 'knowledge' you have? You can't laugh too often then...

It's a good demonstration however that Gary hasn't got clue #1 about hacking - and you don't need to if the systems being accessed are so insecure.

he said he could not have done MUCH damage as he had a 56k modem

unfortunately for Gary stupidity isn't a defence either.

"Much" damage - you don't need a broadband connection to take key strokes to the states - and I'm sure the guy knows this.

I have no idea which IP addresses you would even start looking at - clearly gary does - he's not as dumb as he makes out.

If is was a national government I would so be sneaking him out of the UK and getting him to work for me! If he found and released the information on free energy (witch he was trying to do) it would have saved millions of lives in years to come so I think we can all agree he was doing the right thing? Or maybe we should be killing innocent people in oils wars?

And that was relevant how ?

and of course gary is playing the idiot as part of his defens you would do the same

@ R0bster - "I have no idea which IP addresses you would even start looking at"

Really ?

Really.

You sound surprised - why do you ?

If you do please don't tell me - i don't want to know.

Maybe if Gary had taken the same attitude he wouldnt be in this mess

Try 131.84.1.*

So now you know an IP range. Criminal.

P.S. Took me about two seconds to find a .mil range using skills and tools available to a preteen.

Whatever his reasons for connecting to these machines - misguided or not - the prospect of 70 years + $$$ millions is a little harsh, no?

It speaks volumes about the capability of these 'public sector' organisations if they are so scared of a numpty computer user. And having seen 'behind the veil' I can understand why.

Has any one noticed that yahoo has altered it’s search on Gary McKinnon to being mainly biased against him, with in the last few hours.

And what does telling me an IP address and gving me a thinly veiled insult have to do with the issue at hand - the fact that Gary is guilty and deserves to be tried by the relevant criminal justice system.

Concentrating on irrelevances sugests you realise you've lost the argument :)

I shan't stoop to your level - keep it friendly

Just read about this decision here: http://tinyurl.com/j92ee
and I am really upset about it. I even wrote your Home Office to plead against his extradition, as I KNOW he won't get a fair trial. Our courts and citizens are plagued with abysmal technical ignorance and our incompetent Defense Department security will be sporting major wood to scape-goat Gary. I’ll do whatever letter-writing and word-spreading I can over here. I just hope you all can put a stop to it there first.

I think it's ridiculous, as this blog host says, if he wanted to do harm then id say we'd have known about it sooner than 2 yrs later!
i wish Gary the best of luck. its another example of us pulling our trousers down and taking a length off the yanks!

Gary.
You have cost the American taxpayer a lot of money and now you should serve your time in an American jail (remember to keep your soap on a rope). LOL, was it really worth it, are you feeling really cool now?

Gary.
You have cost the American taxpayer a lot of money and now you should serve your time in an American jail (remember to keep your soap on a rope). LOL, was it really worth it, are you feeling really cool now?

Gary, get ready to come over here and 'enjoy' a vacation in one of our prisons. To the rest of you little British Biatch's, KMA! Stay on your pathetic island and out of the US (at least those posting on this board). Ungratefull little bitches.

Well, I can see by these posts that just like the US, the UK is full of Leftists idiots.

The ones that get me the most are the ones that bleat about "war for oil". Let me ask you dolts something - if we fought this war for oil, then why have neither the US OR GB seen any benefits? Are your gas prices not the highest they have ever been - regardless of the insane tax the UK govenment puts on it - just as they are in the US? If we fought this war for oil - I WANT SOME DAMN SPOILS THEN!!!

But since that was NOT the reason we went to war, I don't suppose that will happen.

We went to war for one reason - to get a foot hold in a region where Islamic fundamentalism flourishes. For the good of the entire world, Islamic fundamentalism needs to be eradicated. I could not care less about the cost of human lives in doing so. If we don't do it NOW - there will BE NO FUTURE for this world. Luckily, our military (both the US and UK) realize this, as do the soldiers fighting this war.

For all of of you that disagree with me - piss off. It is because of people like you that we can't fight the war the way it needs to be fought - LIKE A WAR!! You folks are more concerened with some raghead rights than the rights that are being taken away from us by said raghead.

You people are disgusting. Go live in the Middle East if you think the UK's and US's governments are so corrupt. Fuck you!

If you are in the UK and you feel that Gary's extradition is unfair (no prima facae evidence provided by the US), write to your MP and ask them to sign early day motion 241.

http://www.spy.org.uk/freegary/2005/06/early_day_motion_241_on_the_ex.html

The power of the Extradition Act 2003 is such that a charge can be brought before the UK authorities and you can be taken to Bow Street for extradition trial and conviction. The home office *may* also ensure the death penalty is commuted.

The current situation look's like we are living in the 51st state of Amerika. Scary!

(The Natwest three have already been extradited this way)

Ok first off for all of you bitching about the extradition Im sorry but just because you sat at a keyboard on the other end of the world the crime you commited was in the US. You should feel lucky that the UK doesnt tack on extra damages for using there telecommunications to commit fruad / crime (The US Will do this to you and drop your ass in prison and "Loose" you. Just ask Kevin).

Now If I hacked a power grid and you or a loved one was in a hostipal and they lost life support wouldnt you want me to face the people I hurt and face the crime i commited in a country that would want to persecute me vs. another contry who was not affected so there involvement is nothing more then trying to win publisity with there own media sources.

Fair dues to him for highlighting the utter stupidity of these people. Fingers crossed that the British Home Sec has the balls to make the right decision.

Chris your last comments shows your absolute lack of intelligence, go read some history books and you'll find that the U.S government, but mostly the CIA is responsible causing so many wars all around the world, because they want an government installed that will sell them oil, and that is FACT.

I am outraged but not surprised at him being extradited, he is British and should be tried in England. Hold on Gary man.

Ahhh. . . my fellow slope-fore headed countrymen babble forth. Proving my point that a fair trial can't be had when one's population consists of Bud drinking mouth-breathers whose entire political philosophies consist of "Those FOX newswomen are HOT!" or "Fuck yeah! You tell 'em Rush!"

To EXPATT - what taxpayer cost did Gary incur? Besides the ass-covering extradition process? If the U.S. is pricing the cost of re-imaging a bunch of unsecured PCs at $900k, be pissed that the I.T. departments are over-charging and not securing their own equipment.

To the Gary poster:
He went on a fact-finding mission that was entirely VICTUMLESS! No major damage has been done and no loss of life or limb occurred. So your analogy doesn’t apply.
As for your reference to Kevin (Mitnik I presume), I suggest you read “The Hacker Crackdown” by Bruce Sterling (here’s an intro: http://www.mit.edu/hacker/hacker.html) It’s a great read and it has the facts on how that whole abusive and ridiculous trial went down.

Veneficus - really?

So, we installed Manuel Noriega for oil? And Fidel Castro as well? hmmm.... right.....

I'll give you the Shah of Iran, but that was more politcally motivated then it was for "oil".

Just exactly how long do you think sweet crude oil (which is used in refining for petrol) has been in demand? Hundreds of years or something? Like the US was built on it's "thrist" for oil?

BTW - how did you get to work today? Did you walk? Because if you didn't then you are nothing more than a hypocrite - which is a major character trait of Leftists.

ihmo,he searched for and found blank (ie-crap) passwords using a little knock-together pearl script? and found them?

Even the most basic home user knows the danger of that.

We have a word where I come from. Mardy. As in petulant,
and a bit thick. Over emotional

Leave your front door open, and someone will walk in.

But what disgusts me most of all, is how the British system brown-noses the so-called 'rule of law' of the Once united states.

I'm taking this opportunity to register my disgust.

IF YOU CANNOT DO THE TIME THEN DON'T DO THE CRIME!!!

Stop blubbering behind women and face up to it like a man you big baby. You thought you were clever until the US authorities caught up with you. They have a legal right to trial you for your total stupidity and damage to them. I rather you be trialed in the USA then at cost to us the British taxpayer. Stop being a wimp and face it YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WAS DOING WAS ILLEGAL!!!

To the "Brain of Britain" Veneficus.
Yeh...of course getting hacked does not cost a penny to the hacker but for companies and especially governments, increasing online security and the added cost of maintaining that security with the number of, now increased man hours, is very costly, its not a simple case of going to Dixons and buying "Norton Anti-Hack"Software, my dear neanderthal hacker sympathiser.

hang on, why should my hard working taxes have to foot the legal bill for this loser?

Send him off to the states to be tried after all it is not like he is innocent. He broke in to military computers not like he didn't know. If I robbed the US Bank I get in trouble in the USA why should this Gary be so special?

Hahaha, I love the way people are digging the knife in with their "He's Guilty" jibes from a Black and White Perspective.
But they wouldn't be mocking so hard if the Fed's busted down their door and ransacked their dwelling for eveidence. Kiss any decency or respectable way of life goodbye. It's over. And, because of the beloved Patriot Act, the Fed's can do that to American civilians at any time without need for an explanation or warrant, as well as screw Brits over whenever they feel like it due to an extradition agreement. Wronged American and British victims of such injustice: Say goodbye to your Black and White views right then.

So, see things from his perspective for a change.

The situation should be seen in shades of grey.

Sure he hacked. He's a hacker. Scorpion's sting. It's what they do. And to be a hacker, you have to actually hack.
He didn't launch nukes. He didn't kill anyone. He didn't get a blow job from an Intern and face impeachment, or fuck his Civil Servant Secretary in his Deputy Prime Minister's office, and avoid prosecution.
He crashed a network? Prove it. 'Cause I'm over here. The Fed's are over there. In my shady grey vision, they've got a lot to prove before I change my spectrum of greyness over to their side of the justice 'polarity'.
Go Figure!

EXPATT: - Touché! LOL!

I still know that you don't roll out bunches of PC with blank or default passwords at any business, much less a defense facility. That's like throwing up a network without a firewall.

"Sure he hacked. He's a hacker. Scorpion's sting. It's what they do. And to be a hacker, you have to actually hack."
POSTED BY NIXAM

Then why can't he take his punishment like a hacker and go to America where his crimes exist and take his medicine.
I say he deserves everything thrown at him. Send me a post card of the USA you big baby!

@ Rob Channey - please mind your language

My God, do you all seriously think that this deserves a possible sentence of 70 years?! It's not like the man ate babies or mailed anthrax to a Senator. He did the virtual equivalent of sneaking into an unlocked building and snooping around! Yes - punish him, but don't throw him to the slavering wolves for mischief and curiosity!

Then why can't he take his punishment like a hacker and go to America where his crimes exist and take his medicine.
I say he deserves everything thrown at him. Send me a post card of the USA you big baby!

Because he can be tried as a hacker in his own yard. And then send a postcard to the Feds in Virginia at Her Majesty's Pleasure. He's our citizen. Hands off, get your own scapegoat, Mr. Fed(up)!
Love the spin you guys are feeding us. Almost textbook. Almost. How's it spelt now? Properganda? Propoganda? Propagander? It escapes me...

Quote “Like the US was built on it's "thrist" for oil?”
No, America was built on the genocide of the native Indians (56million). And learn to spell “thirst”.

Quote “BTW - how did you get to work today? Did you walk? Because if you didn't then you are nothing more than a hypocrite - which is a major character trait of Leftists.”
I am not old enough to drive. And because I’m an intellectual I prefer to stay neutral politically so I am not bound by a one sided view and I can openly insult any party on the political spectrum. You my friend are an idiot!

You know what's funny about all this - McKinnon was never actually on US soil when he did the hacking, he could only have brocken UK law (law simply cannot be applied internationally). The user of the internet should only have to obey local (his country law), NOT the law of the hosting country for the server!

@ Chris - this discussion thread is not the place to rant about killing people, even if they are Islamic fundamentalists.

You may think that you have total freedom of speech, but we do not have that here in the UK:

"Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006"

Is it a coincidence that there was an equally abusive "Chris" last July, apparently posting from the same company IP address range ?

i agree with Alex, he should be tried under UK law and i'm sure he will accept his punishment, like we would hope. He did break the law, thats a risk of course, but he should not be allowed to be made an example of by the US govmt who are just trying to display their power and gain some of the worlds respect back. I think if anything, he should work community service for the US gvmt and assist them in securing their networks!

Uno más ha sido capturado hoy,
Está en todos los periódicos.
"Joven arrestado en Escándalo de Crimen por Computadora",
"Hacker arrestado luego de traspasar las barreras de seguridad de un banco . . ."
Malditos muchachos. Todos son iguales.

Pero tú, en tu sicología de tres partes y tu tecnocerebro de 1950, has alguna vez observado detrás de los ojos de un Hacker?
Alguna vez te has preguntado qué lo mueve, qué fuerzas lo han formado, cuáles lo pudieron haber moldeado?
Soy un Hacker, entra a mi mundo . . .
El mío es un mundo que comienza en la escuela . . .
Soy más inteligente que la mayoría de los otros muchachos, esa basura que ellos nos enseñan me aburre . . .
Malditos subrealizados. Son todos iguales.

Estoy en la preparatoria.
He escuchado a los profesores explicar por decimoquinta vez como reducir una fracción.
Yo lo entiendo.
"No, Srta. Smith, no le voy a mostrar mi trabajo, lo hice en mi mente . . ."
Maldito muchacho. Probablemente se lo copió. Todos son iguales.

Hoy hice un descubrimiento.
Encontré una computadora.
Espera un momento, esto es lo máximo. Esto hace lo que yo le pida. Si comete un error es porque yo me equivoqué.
No porque no le gusto . . .
O se siente amenazada por mi . . .
O piensa que soy un engreído . . .
O no le gusta enseñar y no debería estar aquí . . .
Maldito muchacho. Todo lo que hace es jugar. Todos son iguales.
Y entonces ocurrió . . .
una puerta abierta al mundo . . .
Corriendo a través de las lineas telefónicas
como la heroína a través de las venas de un adicto, se envía un pulso electrónico,
un refugio para las incompetencias del día a día es buscado . . .
una tabla de salvación es encontrada.
"Este es . . . este es el lugar a donde pertenezco . . ."
Los conozco a todos aquí . . .
aunque nunca los hubiera conocido, o hablado con ellos, o nunca vuelva a escuchar de ellos otra vez . . .
Los conozco a todos . . .
Malditos muchachos. Enlazando las lineas telefónicas otra vez.

Todos son iguales . . .
Apuesta lo que sea a que todos somos iguales . . .
A nosotros nos han estado dando comida para bebés con cuchara en la escuela, cuando estábamos hambrientos de carne . . .
Las migajas de carne que ustedes dejaron escapar estaban masticadas y sin sabor.
Nosotros hemos sido dominados por sádicos, o ignorados por los apáticos.
Los pocos que tienen algo que enseñarnos encontraron alumnos complacientes, pero esos pocos son como gotas de agua en el desierto.

Ahora este es nuestro mundo . . .
El mundo del electrón y el conmutador, la belleza del baudio.
Nosotros hacemos uso de un servicio que ya existe sin pagar por lo que podría ser barato como el polvo, si no estuviera en manos de glotones hambrientos de ganancias,
y ustedes nos llaman criminales.
Nosotros exploramos . . .
y ustedes nos llaman criminales.
Nosotros buscamos detrás del conocimiento . . .
y ustedes nos llaman criminales.
Nosotros existimos sin color, sin nacionalidad, sin prejuicios religiosos . . .
y ustedes nos llaman criminales.
Ustedes construyeron bombas atómicas,
ustedes hicieron la guerra,
ustedes asesinaron, engañaron y nos mintieron
y trataron de hacernos creer que era por nuestro bien,
ahora nosotros somos los criminales.

Si, soy un criminal.
Mi crimen es la curiosidad.
Mi crimen es el juzgar a las personas por lo que dicen y piensan,
no por lo que aparentan.
Mi crimen es ser más inteligente, algo por lo cual nunca me olvidarás.
Soy un Hacker, este es mi manifiesto.
Tu podrás detener este esfuerzo individual, pero nunca podrás detenernos a todos . . .
después de todo, todos somos iguales.

@ Hang em High - read the terms of your ISPs Acceptable Use Policy.

I used Google to translate that last Spanish post. Here's a (very) rough translation. I rather like it:

"It has been captured one more today, It is in all newspapers. “Young arrested in Scandal of Crime by Computer”, “Hacker arrested after transferring the barriers of security of a bank…” Damn boys. All are equal. But you, in your sicología of three parts and your tecnocerebro of 1950, have sometimes observed behind the eyes of a Hacker? Sometimes you have wondered yourself what moves it, what forces have formed it, which it could have molded? I am a Hacker, enters my world…. Mine it is a world that begins in the school…. I am more intelligent than most of the other boys, that sweepings that they teach to us bores to me…. Damn submade. They are all equal ones. I am in the preparatory one. I have listened the professors to explain by fifteenth time like reducing a fraction. I understand it. “No, Srta. Smith, I am not going to show my work to him, did it in my mind…” Damn boy. Probably was copied it. All are equal. Today I made a discovery. I found a computer. Delay a little while, this is the maximum. This does what I request to him. If it commits an error it is because I was mistaken. Not because not him taste…. Or one feels threatened by my…. Or it thinks that I am a vain one…. Or it does not like to teach and it would not have to be here…. Damn boy. Everything what does is to play. All are equal. And then it happened…. a door opened to the world…. Running through the telephone lines like the heroin through the veins of an addict one, an electronic pulse is sent, a refuge for the incompetencias of the day to day is looked for…. a salvation table is found. “This it is… this is the place to where I belong…” I know them all here…. although never there were well-known, or spoken with them, or it never returns to listen again of them…. I know them all…. Damn boys. Connecting the telephone lines again. All are equal…. It bets what is to that all we are equal…. To us been giving us they have eaten for babies with spoon in the school, when we were hungry of meat…. The meat breadcrumbs that you let escape you were chewed and without flavor. We have been dominated by sadists, or ignored by the apathetic ones. The few that have something to teach to us found complacientes students, but those few are like drops of water in the desert. Now this it is our world…. The world of the electron and the commutator, the beauty of the baud. We make use of a service that already exists without paying reason why it could be cheap like the dust, if it were not into the hands of gluttons hungry of gains, and you call criminals to us. We explored…. and you call criminals to us. We looked for behind the knowledge…. and you call criminals to us. We existed without color, nationality, religious prejudices…. and you call criminals to us. You constructed atomic pumps, you waged the war, you assassinated, deceived and they lay to us and they tried to make us think that was by our good, now we are the criminals. If, I am a criminal. My crime is the curiosity. My crime is to judge to the people reason why they say and they think, reason why they do not pretend. My crime is to be more intelligent, something thus never you will forget to me. I am a Hacker, this is my manifesto. Your you will be able to stop this individual effort, but never you will be able to stop us to all…. after all, all we are equal."

All I can say is: Heh.

No sensitive data of the type Gary was hoping to find is kept online. It's kept in secure facilities and air gapped from other networks.

Gary has been very naive in this matter and I think what really needs to be established is the intent behind the crime.

For example, we have manslaughter charges because not every motive behind a crime resulting in a death is that of murder.

There is no need whatsoever to extradite Gary to the USA.

The crime is such that the evidence can be obtained in black and white and relayed to courts in the UK, where Gary can face trial for what amounts to walking through an open door because he was curious.

The judgement should reflect the nature of the crime.

The lack of security on the systems in question reflect the fact that any unauthorised access to the systems in question posed no threat to national security.

You 'cannot' and should not endeavour to stifle curiosity.

@ kicke and Nixium - A link to the well known "Hacker Manifesto" would have saved some bandwidth e.g.

http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/manifesto.html

Hey, I was close. Google RoxXor5! :S

Oh yeah, if Gary had hacked Russian or African servers, would he probably be extradited over to their soil? Erm...
And if not, why should he be extradited to America?

Their case falls apart it you follow this reasoning...

EXCUSE ME! This guy commited crimes KNOWINGLY not just once but for years.
He should get the full extent of the law and shipped to America.
If he didn't want to go to jail THEN HE SHOULD OF THOUGHT ABOUT DOING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. I am not wanting this sad nerd wasting my earned tax £s because he don't like the view from a Britiah prison. Why in this politically correct country is the criminal treated like a victim? Send him packing and hope we never see his scrawny ugly face for another 75 years. Let this be a lesson to all you other computer nerds who hack and think your so brilliant and smug but when you get caught and have to face your crimes you blubber like little girls and cry to mummy because you can't take the penalty.
JAIL HIM !!!

"JAIL HIM !!!"

[Waves To Fed] Hi!

GARY GET A GIRLFRIEND !!!
After they release you from Attica prison.

If Gary is going to the US for a crime he committed, then whoever in the US told the lies about the damage he did should serve the same sentence over here. Bullshit!

There are a couple of pictures taken by 'schmoo' outside Bow St magistrates at http://www.schmoontherun.blogspot.com Hope things work out for you.

Nixum - get a life too while you are at it.

I don't get it at all.

The USA hires system administrators who ignore best practice in security, and then cry when someone walks through the door, what a bunch of assholes. Typically, the USA becomes the world hypocrite for the gazillionth time.

Gary, I hope to hell that the UK Government refuse to support any efforts at extradition. If they let the USA try to dictate what is to be with your case, I'll do all I can to actively protest, the USA can read what they wish into this statement.

Blank non-renamed Administrator accounts. I work for a local government council, and we're not even that bad. This is kids stuff. I was going to say "unbelievable" but I'll just say "typical America".

Gary, I wish you all the best.

Then Dave why didn't Gary do himself a favour and not commit the crimes in the first place?
Then he wouldn't need defending. He shouldn't and he knew he shouldn't of been there in the first place.

He deserves the medicine he gets.

Just a passing thought...

The stupidest thing the USA did in your case was to throw the book at you.

If I were them, I would have hired you in security to "keep your friends close and the enemy closer!"

They know there is no "Damage" on PCs, they are just very embarassed and heads are rolling for it.

The only crime here was committed by the USA themselves for not being responsible enough to take care of their own security. The only rolling heads should be the systems admin people in the State institutions.

This was not even active hacking, it was vulnerability discovery, there is a difference. One is destructive to a measure and the other is taking advantage of security holes.

Gary caused no damage. The USA damaged their credibility... once again

You Brits are funny. I bet if the tables were turned, and the hacker was an American and had hacked into British military computers, you folks would want to invade the USA for the 3rd time. wake up, people. The guy is a CRIMINAL and deserves to go to jail.

If Gary was a COMMUNIST RUSSIAN or a FRENCH or a GERMAN Hacker, would he be extradited?

I don't think so...

I am a unix systems admin, and have been since the late 80's.

Yeah, the fact he was able to login to a military network without a password is unforgiveable and whomever is in charge of IT should be sacked if they haven't already.

But that doesn't make what Gary did right.

I'm sick to death of hackers, as an experiment I opened a conduit on my firewall last night to see how many attempts would be made to ssh into a machine. 214 attempts, most from Korea.

He deserves to be imprisoned.

And why should he not stand trial in America? The crimes he committed were directed at the USA?

If some bloke in America had caused that damage at the UK military and we managed to identify him, we'd be screaming for extradition too and we'd expect to get it.

If an american had entered British military computers and caused trouble I hoped he get sent here to face his crimes. Gary had commited his crimes electronically in America. Hence he might as well been in America. America has the right to trial him there. I am British and I believe that we are right to extradite him.
He intentionally and without invitation physically connected his computer to another so he is as liable had he been outside the Pentagon walls doing it. When you commit electronic crimes your geographic location during the criminal activity does not come into it as you are still committing an offence directly in that country and you are bound by the laws and justice of that country. America is the victim of Gary Mckinnon activity, he should not of been there and he purposely hacked into their computers and for whatever reason Gary knowingly commited a crime in America and he should face an American court of law. As a Brit I would expect the same the other way around too.

> This was not even active
> hacking, it was
> vulnerability discovery,

Testing for vulnerabilities without the consent of the network owner is ok? No..

Did Gary send them a polite e-mail pointing out the vulnerability? No..

By his own admission, he wasn't testing for vulnerabilities, he was looking for secrets.

He logged into machines that were not his, which he did not have permission to login to, looking for data he had no right to access.

That's hacking in my book.

"Nixum - get a life too while you are at it."
- Mr Fed Jail Gary Now

Yawn.
That's 'N-I-X-I-U-M', Mr. Fed. [Waves] With two I's. If you're going to insult me, at least try to be punctual, i.e. precise, in case you didn't know. Hey, you got the 'too' bit right, too. Well done. You must be a post-graduate Fed.

Dave you missed the point - What Gary McKinnock did was ILLEGAL! Gary purposely in full knowledge BROKE THE LAW. Now Gary is facing the law and should face the music like a man.
He broke US law and with a phone line trespassed.
His fault I have no sympathy for idiots.

If I knew you personally, would probably suggest escaping to all sorts of places together. I also thought many times about playing such 'games' on the computer when much younger, having lived in England over 25 yrs. But I AM disguested with the British gov't for even contemplating extraditing you. Right now you only serve as a media puppet and scapegoat with little or no media backup expertise (e.g. from the BBC: the interview was a bit of joke). Sincere best of!

nixum or whatever I'd have a job being a fed in middle England working in an industrial estate. Not much work for a fed there.
Besides Nixuom or whatever you are I don't wish to spend enough time on you to study about your name tag. You are too sad. But at least you got my name tag wrong too you add too much crappy prefixes and/or affixes

Whatever.

The figures quoted for the damage he (allegedly) did seem incredibly excessive. The law states that a citizen may be extradited for such an offense if the total damage sustained is greater than a certain amount (I believe this is $5000 (?)).

It is clear to me that the figures quoted by the US prosecution are not justifiable. They have been contrived solely to activate the extradition process.

Most of the cost incured will likely go towards security engineers' salaries to improve security (hmm, like having some). Had they invested proper resources in the first place, they wouldn't have been 'hacked' - though I use the term loosely as simply entering a username isn't exactly hacking.

Given that there was effectively a 'permanent residency' of foreign hackers on the system, how exactly do they intend to prove that any alleged damage was caused by Gary? I imagine that they will simply look at the login times when only he was on and provide an 'eye-witness' who will say, "oh yeah, the system definitely went down then".

I forsee a gross injustice in the making here. Sure, Gary did a stupid thing that warrants a degree of punishment. However, one could abuct and kill a child and get less time than they want to throw at him. It's a stark reminder of what a fucked up world we live in where crimes against property are punished more severly than those against people. I'd like to see the witch-burners in this thread try to justify that one.

I forsee a gross injustice in the making here. Sure, Gary did a stupid thing that warrants a degree of punishment. However, one could abuct and kill a child and get less time than they want to throw at him.
-Alex

Why not find out the severity of the punishment before committing the crime first? Instead of commiting the crime then whining about the punishment!
If Gary McKinnon only wanted to face minimal punishments then he should of instead stole a packet of peanuts from a supermarket and not hacked into above all military computers of another nation. What did Gary McKinnon expect a handshake and a pat on the back by the vice president?
Gary McKinnon was not there to find faults with the security to report them to the authorities with their permission he was hacking for information and no matter what information it was he had no right to be there.

I think a lot of people miss the main point here, which is the ridiculous extradition arrangements currently in place with the US government.

Yes, he allegedly did break a US law. I can break as many ****ing laws of the USA I like, provided that they are legal here in the UK. If what he did is illegal here in the UK, this is where he should be tried, as this is where any offence was committed.

UK citizens living in the UK are not and never have been required to uphold the laws of the USA.

Nixium,

Liked your last post. I'm just wondering where the US will go after they have Hung Drawn and Quartered Gary, for that is their aim.

I have a feeling that UK government will sit aside like wet fish, whilst the Bush Administration tell the UK how it's going to be.

Personally, I have done this sort of stuff myself, and it's not particularly sophisticated, or smart either.

I guess this case is a warning against those moments of boredom.

> It is clear to me that
> the figures quoted by the
> US prosecution are not
> justifiable.

I'm not so sure about that. If you find hacker(s) have been running rampant around your network, it's not just a case of applying passwords.

You have to look for rootkits or any other backdoors that may have been implemented, other servers that he logged into all have to be checked too.

Sometimes, it's just best to reinstall the operating system.

I don't know how many systems Gary got into, but having to reinstall the OS and recover data from backups etc can take an incredible amount of time and resource. Hell, just finding out where he went would take an age.

> simply entering a
> username isn't exactly
> hacking.

Is that all he did then? How could you, as a systems admin for that network, be sure of that? How do they know Gary didn't manipulate logs, install rootkits etc etc?

And he didn't just enter a username, he's admitted he was trawling for secrets.

> how exactly do they
> intend to prove that any
> alleged damage was caused
> by Gary?

Gary was an idiot in that he was identified. Any hacker worth his salt would have swiped a shell account in Korea and used multiple hop points. Gary strikes me as a bit of a script kiddie to be honest.

I reckon he was probably the only one they could identify.

> we live in where crimes
> against property are
> punished more severly
> than those against
> people.

Yup... it is unfair, but he probably should have thought about the penalty before doing it - or dare I say, he should have picked a soft target, not the US military for crying out loud.

I mean jesus, this isn't a case of he logged in one time, downloaded a few files, and immediately logged off. He did it to multiple networks, multiple machines, over a period of years. What did he think was going to happen if he got caught? A slap on the wrist?

Mark, he did commit crimes in America. He intentionally linked his computer to one in the US. He physically by electronic means attached his property to that of someone elses. That is as good as if he was committing the crimes with a laptop right outside the Pentagon building on US soil. He affected American computers they have a right and an international law right to haul his butt in.

JGN - the USA won't even sign up to most international legal conventions. The USA still executes the mentally ill and those who commit crimes as children. Don't dare pontificate to the 5.75 billion of us who are not US citizens. He committed any offences here and should be tried according to this. I despair of people like you.

I wish people would stop saying that Gary "broke" into the government/military computers. He did no such thing, there was no password or security breaking/cracking/hacking involved. He merely logged onto an administrator account which had no password.

There are alot of Americans (don't get me wrong I know and love Americans) on this message board, who are getting uptight, saying Gary deserves to pay for his crime. They are dodging the key issue completely, which is why these government and millitary computers had such a major security flaw in them in the first place? and Why did it take so long to realise (so called) damage had been done, and that lamen's could access the computers due to security flaws.

Yes, Gary should not have walked through these open doors. But thanks to him and the media, the US government is now aware of the issues, and can prevent real terrorists with an internet connection from exploiting the same security holes. Be lucky that Gary had no malicious intent. It could just have easily been a member of Al-Qaeda with a broadband connection, and it could just have easily been too late. It is estounding that a government which has waged war on terror, who face the most dangerous enemies, will leave top security level machines without an administrator password.

Law requires he is sent to America who were affected by his crimes.
American criminal laws for their own people is there business but when Gary McKinnon poke himself into their business he made himself their business. He can't have his cake and eat it.
Gary McKinnon's extradiction is legal that is why the ruling was made. Maybe hackers will think about that! Justice is being done.

> He committed any offences
> here and should be tried
> according to this.

Don't make this into some political anti-US nonsense.

He committed the crimes against US computers on US soil.

If electronic law was operated on your basis, then it'd be bloody open season on every network.

He's not going to get the chair and he's not gonna end up in Guantanamo.

He hacked into a foreign nations military systems. We'd be screaming blue bloody murder if an American did this to us and he didn't get extradited.

This whole thread is being used as an excuse to voice anti-American sentiment.

Hey, I'm no fan of American government policy, but I'm not a bloody idiot either and won't be brainwashed by people like you.

And his defence team are doing him no favours by playing the 'oooo... he'll be tried as a terrorist and end up in an orange jump suit in Guantanamo' card.

Pathetic. He broke the law, he got caught. He should take it like a man.

GARY,
WHY DONT YOU MAKE AN OFFER TO US THAT YOU'LL WORK WITH THEM INCREASING SECURITY.
WHATEVER YOUR INTENTIONS WERE, YOU ARE A VERY SMART GUY AND YOU CAN USE IT FOR THE BETTER, TO HELP IMPROVE SECURITY.
YOU GOT THE INFO YOU WANTED FROM THEIR COMPUTERS, NOW MAYBE REACH A DEAL WHERE YOU CAN HELP THEM.

> I wish people would stop
> saying that Gary "broke"
> password or security
> breaking/cracking/hacking
> involved.

Writing a Perl script to probe computers to find accounts with no passwords is cracking.

Logging into a computer you have no right to login to, even without cracking a password, is illegal.

Because America has such a bad record of human rites abuse. Were not aloud to extradite him to that country.

Paul exactly.

I don't get my neighbours breaking into my house univited just to point out to me, "oooh a burgular could of got in that way" or "I smashed your door down to get in - just to let you know your locks are a bit cheap"
I'd be pretty upset with them. l

Likewise the American government are the same and so would the the British government who would be just as quick demanding an extradiction of a foriegn national who was doing it to us.

>> It is clear to me that
>> the figures quoted by the
>> US prosecution are not
>> justifiable.

> I'm not so sure about
> that. If you find
> hacker(s) have been
> running rampant around
> your network, it's not
> just a case of applying
> passwords.

> You have to look for
> rootkits or any other
> backdoors that may have
> been implemented, other
> servers that he logged
> into all have to be
> checked too.
> ...

Possibly, but how many man hours do you think that would take? At my current rate as an IT professional (a fair wage) I would have to work for over 5 weeks to incur as much cost as the required extradition amount. If I could not repair these systems within that time, I have a feeling I'd have to find another job.

>> simply entering a
>> username isn't exactly
>> hacking.

> Is that all he did then? > How could you, as a
> systems admin for that
> network, be sure of that?
> How do they know Gary
> didn't manipulate logs,]
> install rootkits etc etc?

Not relevant to the particular point I was making which was only his trivial method of *initial* access to the systems, highlighting the shoddy security.

>> And he didn't just enter
>> a username, he's admitted
>> he was trawling for secrets.

Again, not relevant to my point. Yes he admitted having a look around which should be factored into the punishment.

>> how exactly do they
>> intend to prove that any
>> alleged damage was caused
>> by Gary?

> Gary was an idiot in that
> he was identified. Any
> hacker worth his salt
> would have swiped a shell
> account in Korea and used
> multiple hop points. Gary
> strikes me as a bit of a
> script kiddie to be
> honest.

Yes so he was inept, he freely admits this. How does this address the question of prooving *he alone* did all that (alleged) damage?

>> I reckon he was probably
>> the only one they could
>> identify.

Precisely - so they'll try to put the whole thing on him, whether he did all of it or not. I'm speculating that their 'proof' will be at best, circumstantial and at worst completely fabricated. While it's a nice idea that this kind of thing gets thrown out in court, there is a powerful agenda at work here and things often don't turn out that way in reality.

>> we live in where crimes
>> against property are
>> punished more severly
>> than those against
>> people.

> Yup... it is unfair, but
> he probably should have
> thought about the penalty
> before doing it - or dare
> I say, he should have
> picked a soft target, not
> the US military for crying
> out loud.

I agree that he should not have done it, but you seem to be justifying the penalty even though you admit it is unfair. How do you reconcile this? Do you really feel it is unfair or are you just saying that?

>> What did he think was
>> going to happen if he
>> got caught? A slap on
>> the wrist?

How is what he thought the punishment would be relevant to the fairness of the sentence? I agree he was foolish, but his stupidity doesn't make it justified does it?

hola
yo estoy muy de acuerdo con el trabajo de Gary Mckinnon ,
y creo mucho en su inocensia su curiocida y capacidad le llevo asta mas alla ,yo creo deven valorarlo y es el unico en el mundo que llega a tan alto nivel no se merece ninguna centencia ,al contrario un apoyo en todo centido ,y la NASA deve tener mas seguro sus archivos todo es culpa de la NASA gracias espero que me entiendan y no deve ser extraditado sino liberado y premiado yu siga su vida normal

All he wants is to be jugged by people of his own country. Not be dragged of to a witch-hunt. And he now’s he has done wrong but he can not be extradited to a country that dose not abide by the conventions laid down by the Geneva Conventions unlike a country that lets something like Guantanamo Bay go on.

> I don't get my neighbours
> breaking into my house
> univited just to point
> out to me, "oooh a
> burgular could of got in
> that way" or "I smashed
> your door down to get in
> - just to let you know
> your locks are a bit
> cheap"
> I'd be pretty upset with
> them. l

Sure, what would that be worth to you, 70 years, or maybe 50 if they didn't break anything else?

Using your rather simplistic analogy, wouldn't it be more accurate to say they turned the handle walked in through your open door rather than having broken the lock?

> Likewise the American
> government are the same
> and so would the the
> British government who
> would be just as quick
> demanding an extradiction
> of a foriegn national who
> was doing it to us.

Perhaps they would demand extradition. Do two wrongs make a right these days?

And in fact, though the British goverment might demand extradition, they'd be far less likely to get it then the US. Who's for some good old double-standards then?

In fact most of the cost they attribute to him costing them is probably them fixing the holes he found in their system

"Nixium,

Liked your last post. I'm just wondering where the US will go after they have Hung Drawn and Quartered Gary, for that is their aim.

I have a feeling that UK government will sit aside like wet fish, whilst the Bush Administration tell the UK how it's going to be.

Personally, I have done this sort of stuff myself, and it's not particularly sophisticated, or smart either.

I guess this case is a warning against those moments of boredom.
" - Dave

If a Russian citizen in Russia had hacked UK networks, would his country allow him to be extradited to the UK for trial? Nope.

If a German citizen in Germany had hacked UK or US networks, would his country allow him to be extradited to the UK or the U.S.A. for trial? Nope, they have laws to prevent exactly this from happening.

If a UK citizen hacked a North Korean network and North Korea demanded an extradition for a trial, would it happen? Nope.

If a US citizen hacked a Russian network and Russia demanded an extradition for a trial in Russia, would it happen? You must be joking.

So what makes this extradition so special? sweet F.A. It's a farce. The U.K. is Fed Bitch.
The extradition should not happen. Gary should be trialled in the U.K. where the crime actually happened.
U.S. Laws have no power there, only the U.K. Computer Misuse Act is relevant and applicable.

FREE GARY MCKINNON!!!!!!!

Begin sacrcasm...

I want to reassure all of you that your paranoid delusions of the US judicial system are justified.

The US government doesn't bother to discern between a typical fair skinned, red headed British lad who was smoking a doob and just poking around for the fun of it and a nefarious Muslim that is intent on destroying Western civilization because Allah (praise be unto him) said it was his duty (not to mention the 27 virgins he gets as a reward).

...end sarcasm

If Gary is, in fact, extradited to the US he will undoubtably have the backing of the ACLU and other leftists groups that will not ALLOW him to be tried as an enemy combatant (hell, even I would join the protest on that!)

If Gary is tried in Federal Court in Virigina he will most assuredly recieve a fair trial. Contrary to his quote today, Virginia has had a Democratic govenor for the last two terms and the Northern Virginia area where the Fed Court is located (the one that just heard the Moussai case) is a fairly liberal area. The jury pool that will be used will actually be in Gary's favor, especially if he just remains himself in court and acts contrite and remorseful - and makes no political statements (regardless of how he may feel. Just bite your tounge!)

If, unfortunately, Gary is convicted he will NOT be incarcerated in the typical American jail so "accurately" portrayed in American cinema, he will most likely be sent to a Federal Pen that is more-or-less a country club. Good food, clean cells, cable TV, other white collar offenders. He will end up doing the easiest time that is possible. Guantanamo? Not even a remote possibility.

I give Gary credit for one thing - at least he readily admits his transgression. He knows he fucked up. IMHO, if you gotta do your time, you are probably better off doing it in the States at a Federal Penitentiary. It will be hell on your family and friends (considering the distance) but I doubt you will be there long. Coupla years tops.

Good luck to you, mate. Don't worry - most of the stuff you see in the media is sensationalized bullshit. America is still a damn fine country and you will be treated fairly.

Like I said, sensationalized BS....

" 9/11 hacker should be extradited to stand trial in America, rules judge"

And that is a headline from the Telegraph in the UK!

Tell me - wtf does Gary McKinnon have to do with 9/11? How can they justify that inference in their headline?

If Gary is prosecuted in the UK for this would that prevent his extradition?

If so couldn't a private prosecution (i.e. not brought on by the state) be brought against him, preventing his extradition?

As an American, it is my opinion that Gary should be tried in the UK. He is simply a UFO nut job who admitted his hacking was wrong and regrets it. I don’t want my tax dollars spent on bringing him to the United States and tried as a deterrent to others of his cult. I would rather see the tax dollars spent on educating the bone heads who allowed their computers to be accessed. These are the ones that need to be addressed. This is the real problem. Tell Gary to look for UFO’s on his side of the pond and leave the yanks alone. Problem solved. I don’t believe he was malicious, he was just stupid. You have groups dedicated to his support with the motto of “free Gary”, we have the motto, “keep Gary.”

I see no reason why he wouldn't receive a fair trial, for the rights of the accused are strenuously guarded in the U.S. (except for enemy combatants, of course).

It's fruitless to speculate as to whether what he did was illegal under U.S. law, for no evidence has yet been presented. The court's ruling is not whether Gary committed the crime, but whether he can be validly extradited. That's an easy question to answer.

There seems to be no reason not to extradite him, unless it's a matter of national pride to forbid a foreign government from prosecuting a fellow citizen. Thus, it's strictly a political (not a legal or humanitarian) issue. Whether appealing to national pride is a sufficient reason for the Home Secretary will be up to the letter writers.

US soldier committing a crime in Iraq is trialed in US by US law, why???? he should be trial in Iraq by the Iraq laws and Iraqi judges. This is just pure impotence of UK Justice system. Anyway very sorry for the gary.

I guess the US military haven't taken into account the possibility of reprisal attacks against their systems.

Wouldn't it be ironic if real widespread damage was inflicted?

Although the .mil are saying "you broke my PC", the real reason behind this seemingly tough justice is the .mil being embarrassed that Gary exploited a fundimental flaw in a computer system that should be secured by at least a password!

Gary, go to America, cos you did do the crime, but don't you dare bend over and let them shaft you. You accessed data on systems you shoudn't have been peaking at, but Cyber-Trespass does not warrant a 70year jail term.

McKinnon is an ugly skinny nerd and anyway who cares if this bozo fries in the chair - should of thought about the consequences first - can't do the time then don't do the crime.
All this free Gary crud is just a boring cheap shot at America than caring about if this nerd gets justice. If it was something like France wanting him nobody would give a damn about this Gary and that is true!

I have to agree with the above. The vast majority of Free Gary and Justice for Gary crap being spouted is because they have other political grievences with the US Government (such as Bush they read about in the tabloids) not that they really give a squat about the fate of Gary McKinnon they don't care about. McKinnon is just a political pawn for anti american braying.

Besides a British court has RULED that McKinnon can be extradited so America has not broken any laws obtaining him. They have gone through the British legal system.
America now have the RIGHT to him.

Another demonstration of how the United States of Briton being overruled by the fatherland. People should stop worrying about being part of Europe who's countries to my knowledge encourage human rights and start worrying about the USA who seem bent on total global domination. They have been to war more times this century then any other world power. They detain people with-out fair trail by doing it on other peoples soil. Hell their diplomat's even refuse to pay our congestion charge sighting it as a tax under the Geneva convention. Maybe they should read the part about treatment of prisoners or innocent until proven guilty.

If you left money laying around in the street you would expect it to go missing. If you leave documents on the train with Top Secret on them they will be read. If the US military are so lax that they have no password security how can you prosecute someone for accessing there systems. If I were to create a web site that I didn't want anyone to visit would I be able to sue people that did. Nope. So if there information is readily available over the internet what's the difference.

I like Gary,

I watched his BBC interview where he talked about anti-gravity and his UFO evidence "raw and Unprocesed files" one of which he partially downloaded and then deleted without thinking to check the Cache or take a snapshot of the screen.. Nice one ! :-)

as for shipping him off to a US jail? to make an example of! what the fuck? how is this even thinkable.. he's obviously a bit of a buffoon! and probalby shouldny of been where he was but if they can't set even basic security..

give him 3 months here's and a slap on the arse... we send him there, thats just evil

The British Court's have sold Gary out to the Feds, not America. There's a big difference between a citizen of America and Fed.
Citizens of both of our countries are getting so screwed over by these Mafioso's. And yesterday's result is some hard evidence which shaped this opinion.

if i u robbed an americam bank thats one thing but what if you walked in and looked around and walked out?

Libre ..... este es un apoyo desde mi pais Chile .... libertad a Gary

Hooray! I'm so glad Gary will be getting some serious jailtime. Lefty morons always think that destroying the systems that pretect us all from murderous enemies is 'fun' and 'a bit of a laugh' and just like Neo in Matrix. Messing with our armed forces and the armed forces of our allies is treason.

The point is there is no evidence of destruction. As for protecting us from murderous enemies I don't think I've got any but thanks for the offer. I'll have to turn down your excellent forced protection. It's severed us all so well in the past by creating conflict across the globe.

The boy done wrong. Put him inside but do it in his own country and for a reasonable amount of time. Something like 1 week should do it. Alternately give him a medal for pointing out the security holes in the systems that are protecting us from the "murderous enemies". Sure makes me sleep soundly at night knowing these "murderour enemies" never thought to access your countries top security networks.

I personally think that Gary McKinnon deserves to be extradited - he knew what he was doing and kept at it anyways. He is a cyber criminal pure and simple. He did the crime now he is bitching cause he is expected to do the time. I say give him to USA, make an example of this criminal to show to other potential cyber criminals it doesnt pay to hack.

TWAT!,GARY,your an idiot!whether you get a trail,in uk,or usa,as youve allready admitted your guilt,your going to jail!...a fed prison,or wormwood scrubs?....the choice is yours! you were the weakest link! goodbye!...

kiddie fiddlers and rapists get less, why does this guy deserve more? are computers worth more than human beings. shame you didnt cost the US more, it would mean less money for them to spend blowing up innocent civillians in Iraq, which is what they are pissed off about.

maybe a 4 4 15 19 would be good?

by the way the 44 15 19 is coded.

What a load of nonsense. Recently some guy in the US got 5 years after being convicted of running a botnet network.

The botnet even infected "Weapons Division of the US Naval Air Warfare Centrer in China Lake, California, as well as other US Department of Defense PCs" (quote from: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/09/botnet_master_ancheta_jailed/)

He gained financially from this too.

How can the US claim Gary did $700,000 damage and potentially give him 60 years in a US jail? And they claim he damaged one network so badly it took them a month to fix? If it was broken that badly how on earth did Gary go unnoticed for so long?

The indictment can be found at http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/cyberlaw/usmck1102vaind.pdf and their attempt to hide the IP addresses is pretty awful (copy/paste job).

Also the extradition hearing probably couldn't have come at a worse time. With the Labour governments cabinet reshuffle and John Reid being appointed the new Home Office Secretary, he'll probably want to bend over backwards to impress the US government.

But of course, the UK are saying Gary has nothing to worry about. The good old US have sent a nice letter saying everything will be fine. Just like they said Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction...

Look read his interview on the BBC. He says I know I broke the Law. I know it was wrong. Now I know this is a different crime but if i beat someone to death and said well I knew it was wrong but i will face trial in say Egypt during night. Now see how silly that sounds.

He admittly broke in looking for data that was "sensitive" not for public access.

Now people are arguing well he just used bad passwords to get in the person in charge should be to blame for allowing such lack security. Look at the end of the day he took over a users PC. Users are dumb. They are always your weakest link to security. No matter how secure your network is a user can share information that can allow an intrusion or just have a weak password. I will argue you should have been stopped at the top level before you got to PC level but again if i leave my door open and i get robbed i cant be suprised but that doesnt give you the legal right to walk in and steal my TV.

Now as far as extrodition goes we live in a new age of technology where crimes can be commited from the other side of the world. Does that mean the crime was not done or the victim doesnt have rights?

The guy who pushes a button and blows up a bomb still kills people. Does change the fact that he was 100 miles away. People are still dead at his finger. Gary broke in at his own will knowing it was illegal. Now no physical damage was done here so the crime really is light in the grand scale of things however the US has every right to hold a trial in the US using US laws. Being able to commit a crime from another country via the internet doesnt protect you from the laws of your country or the country you are accessing data from.

Again the best part is he admitted he was guilty and now wants to control the terms of his trail. Look as with anything in life there is risks involved if you decide the risk is worth the reward then you should be ready to accept the consiquences of your actions.

if i u robbed an americam bank thats one thing but what if you walked in and looked around and walked out?

Well to answer such a simple question he didnt walk in a bank (During Business hours) look around and leave. He went if while it was closed rummaged through everyones desk, read everyone email, ate your food in the fridge then left. Thats the difference.

US soldier committing a crime in Iraq is trialed in US by US law, why???? he should be trial in Iraq by the Iraq laws and Iraqi judges.

Like anyone if you commit a crime you should be responsible for your actions. Regardless if your in the Military or not. If you commit a crime in Iraq you should face Iraq courts. Now we know this means harsher penalties in some countries. Maybe people will learn to respect each other and not feel they have the right to walk over whoever is in there way etc. And for Military folks when you get out of your Turkish prision etc welcome back to the US for your Court Martial.

Thats my 2 cents.

where gary falls, another will pick up the torch!.

america be warned if little ol gary can access your vast patriotic and unsecure networks you better beef up security or someone with a REAL malicious intent will do REAL damage.

I will never stand by and watch a fellow citizen of my country be scapegoated and packed off to the arsehole of the world america to face time in jail that is not even reserved for a child molester or rapist.

america can attempt to throw its weight around the world but like all things that go it up it must come down, foundations and empires anyone remember what happened to ROME? and the romans????

Produce your evidence to a UK court america then the public just might listen.

Gary will never be in your disgusting little vile country, and as i stated before others will pick up where gary left off and next time we might just do some real damage to your pathetic systems.

To all the Iraq, Bush, Guitanimo Bay comments.

Look I live in the US, I agree Bush is a retard. He should face criminal charges as well as Chenney and other for there actions, however this is not the point of the topic.

You all seem to shout on the "Witch Hunt" that is occuring and the polical agenda here, but all your doing is spitting out your own personal agenda against the US. This really doesnt help your cause and makes you look only as bad as the people you are trying to bash.

Remeber the website is freegary not isbushdumb, istheuswrong. Look the US has always thought they were bigger and badder then anyone else. Everyone seems to be all hyped on this now. Remeber we wiped out a nationality to own this country. The US was formed on the basis that we didnt want British rule. We commited treason, and waged war with our own country at the time, and again during the civil war. Come on we killed our own brothers. We nuked Japan. But hey this Iraq thing is just to far. Come on open a history book. Why are you suprised.

The US has always had there own problems they cant fix but would rather police the world vs fix shit at home. Guess what were doing agian.

america be warned if little ol gary can access your vast patriotic and unsecure networks you better beef up security or someone with a REAL malicious intent will do REAL damage.

Wow lets see how that works for ya. Go ask the family living in a house with 2 walls in Iraq, ask the kid with 3 arms and 4 testicals in Japan.

I wont defend my current administration however if you feel you can openly threaten the US just look how it turned out for others before you start shit.

It seems to me that the extradition of Gary McKinnon to the US is manifest proof of the bully-boy attitude of the United States, that overstates the value of America (etc), while holding the rest of the world in complete disregard. This can be demonstrated in several ways.
Firstly, how is it possible that a British citizen be extradited to a country where reciprocal extradition is not allowed? The fact that America would have a man who insulted their dignity and pride extradited to be convicted in the US is evidence of their vindictive side. Consider this in the light of America’s expectations of the treatment of their own citizens. America has a policy whereby its citizens are protected from extradition by the constitution, and has signed many agreements, such as the one with the United Kingdom, to have its citizens who are convicted felons in other countries returned home, where they will undoubtedly face a lighter sentence, that America would consider appropriate. At the same time, the US expects criminals which it would like to sentence, such as McKinnon, to be extradited for trial in their country. Does this not show their self importance? Why should we bend over to please our vindictive transatlantic cousins? We British should protect our own from such threats, just as the Americans would.
Secondly, should McKinnon be extradited to America, he will face much harsher punishment than should rightfully be expected. He may face up to seventy years in a so called “supermax”, a sentence similar to that of the September the eleventh co plotter Zacarias Moussaoui. Before we even consider the inhumanity of such prisons and how this reflects on the Americans, consider the difference in the crimes they committed. McKinnon on one hand, probed into military computers for information; that depending of your personal beliefs should be made public anyway, exposed security weaknesses and embarrassed America. Zacarias Moussaoui on the other hand contributed to the deaths of three thousand people and a further thirty thousand people in America’s resulting ‘War on Terror’ and the subsequent invasion of ‘I-raq’. Now consider the supermax itself, McKinnon could expect to spend twenty two out of the twenty four hours in a day in solitary confinement, for the rest of his life (it is improbable that McKinnon could live out his seventy year term). He could also expect to spend this in a room that looks out into a concrete courtyard, while knowing the scenic mountains of Colorado lie on the other side, just out of vision. Does this not say something about the American justice system, that would create a prison for people to die in, and then deny them the privilege of a view. Think, McKinnon could expect never to look at an object further that a few hundred yards away. The Americans promised the United Kingdom that McKinnon would not be sent to Guantanamo, what they did not say was that there are equal alternatives.
At any rate, the United Kingdom has a justice system of its own in which McKinnon should be tried and prosecuted. True, it would not give the Americans the ‘justice’ they so badly desire, and have indeed desired for many years in many cases, but it is never the less justice, as we see it in this country. At this juncture I would like to add that I do not condone McKinnon’s illegal actions, and I believe that he should be tried, prosecuted and sentenced in a British court. Furthermore, given America’s vindictive nature, is it not conceivable that McKinnon would face harsher punishment purely because of his foreign nationality and the embarrassment that he caused the US military?
In conclusion, the requested extradition of Gary McKinnon can be seen as reflective of America’s overall attitude to the world, in which they place a huge value on themselves, their country and their dignity. Take, for example, the mentioned case of Zacarias Moussaoui, true America lost many innocent lives, which is a terrible tragedy, but are those American lives any more innocent than those many more killed in bombing of Baghdad and the war on terror? America’s reactions to September the eleventh and Gary McKinnon can be summed up in the word revenge. If extradited Gary McKinnon can expect to experience the full wrath of the egotistical government of the United States, so please; for Britain; for the rest of the world, say no Mr Reid.

To Edward,
I typcially wont do this as it just takes up useful bandwidth and place in a DB but your post was one of the most intelligent ones I have read on here.

I do agree with you in the extent that the US's policy on Human life is disgusting. However I do believe as technology evolves we will see more of these types of cases.

I personally believe Gary McKinnon should face trial in the US just for the fact that he crossed international lines to willingly and knowingly commit a crime in another country. US or not which ever country you willingly and knowingly are going to commit a crime in you should face the penalties of that country and not hide behind your own flag to protect you.

I did want to acknowledge your post however as yes a
"Super Max" prision for a crime of this nature is beyond overkill. Were talking about a skinny white boy who wouldnt survive general population in a US prison. Now should he goto say Fulsom prison (Random Prison for general immates)? No of course not. The US has its "Country Club" prisions for the rich, personally his crime was not in a malicious nature so putting him in a prision with convicted murderers and sex offenders is only risking his life as well as putting Gary in a prison designed to hold persons who could possibly present a threat of escape and global terror on escape is also just beyond ridiculous. He should face the same prision all the Enron scum is facing. Nice 3 meals a day, a view, cable TV in your cell etc.

Lets all at least agree on the simple fact that a simple person got into a network they didnt belong intentionally but the damages done are mainly man hours of an IT Engineer and alot of auditeers to verify no "Real" data was obtained. I also agree that if any such technology is truly in exsistance that it should be publically made available but hey then again who would make money for such simple things we should all have like light and running water.

You have to wonder what is really going on there. Maybe Gary McKinnon found something he shouldn't have, maybe not. But I have to think if the US is willing to drop this guy in such a place that there must be something really intresting going on in these locations that they dont want exposed.

I think this kind of response:

"Wow lets see how that works for ya. Go ask the family living in a house with 2 walls in Iraq, ask the kid with 3 arms and 4 testicals in Japan. "

sums up why this has turned into an anti States blog. It just highlights the image that the US has to the rest of the world. We'll blow the sh*t out of anything and we don't care if it's justified. Basically Gary should be punished but the punishment should fit the crime. This blog has the most stupid name as the guy has admitted his guilt so freeing him would be pretty dumb but not as stupid as sending him to the US for 60 years.

It would seem to me that Chris from the good old USofA should learn a better vocabulary before entering into open forums like this he obviously suffers from Bush syndrome and like most other Americans is completely blinkered into believing the crap and lies that there government spreads as the word.You as a nation should be quite grateful that someone has found your coutries security loopholes before someone with evil intent does so
Good Luck Gary

I think as a nation we the british should put two fingers up to America over this issue he is a British citizen and thats a fact . What did he find was it the lies that the Bush Blair administration used to justify going to war in Iraq which was only really done to satisfy the American greed for oil ?. Possibly so however we will never find out because all the people with the answers are still looking for weapons of mass destruction funny how they havent been found isnt it .

Since this is a blog comment page rather than a threaded usenet group or bulletin board forum, we will be closing the comments on this posting at 2pm, simply because it is now getting rather unwieldy to read unless you have a fast internet connection.

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to comment, even those of you with different opinions to ours.

This blog is not intended to be "anti American" and neither does it condone any threats against US Military computer systems or against anyone else.

People are welcome to comment on other parts of the blog, provided that they keep reasonably polite and legal

Remember this is the United Kingdom, and not the USA, so we do not have as much freedom of speech.

We also now have some recent catch-all laws which directly affect what cannot be published on websites such as this one, in some cases, anywhere in the world. e.g. the Racial or Religous Hatred Act 2006, and the Terrorism Act 2006

Apologies for not yet replying to all the emails we have had, you can appreciate that there have been a large number of them, which we are still working through.

Gary McKinnon is still restricted by his bail conditions from directly using the internet.

and next time we might just do some real damage to your pathetic systems.

Very mature... well done i commend you for openly admitting you are willing to break the law just for the sake of it.
I really despise people like you who think just because you can that you can do whatever the hell you want.
I hope you rot in a hell hole of a deep south jail.

Only one or two people who have posted seem to me to appreciate the real issues here! Whilst I agree there is an important concern over the question of legal juristiction, nevertheless those hostile to this man for breaking the law should arguably pause to reflect for a moment. First, he has always admitted he was wrong. Second, hacking is an addiction and he himself expressed relief at being caught. Third, despite his initial ban from using the net as part of his bail conditions, had he been so inclined, no doubt he could easily have obtained access to it and abused that position. He chose not to however. Fourth, he does not try to defend his wrong-doing. Fifth, and most importantly, his principal mitigation; He, together with an increasingly large number of persons who are prepared to stand up and be counted, are firmly of the view that certain unaccountable bodies within the U.S connected to the military are lying to us on the single most important issues facing mankind - that we are not alone, that 'acquired' beneficial technologies are being suppressed which might otherwise help a world hell bent on burning fossil fuel and destroying itself. Mr Mckinnon seems to me to be a man of positive intent in search of the truth. It is not he who uses words such as 'despise' and 'rot in hell.' I pose the following question: If you continually hear foul and concerning noises coming from your neighbour's house night after night and on questioning your neighbour you are convinced you are being lied to - if you eventually decide to break in to see what is going on (knowing that it is an offence to do so) - should that really provoke such hatred towards the man in search of foul play? And what if, in breaking in, you had uncovered such despicable and appalling actions 'in that person's house' which in turn led to someone being saved, would people then still be hoping that the 'uncoverer of the truth' should 'rot in a hell hole of a deep south jail' simply for 'breaking "Windows" to get in or would they be thanking that person? The mere fact that he didn't get 'down to the basement'in time where the noises were coming from surely doesn't alter his positive intent!! Talk of 60 years stuns me. What on earth was in the basement one wonders? As a barrister, seeing muggers and sex offenders walk free, something is wrong here.

Guilty but mitigated.

This is a disabled man who was able to penetrate secure computer systems only because of the laughable security.

He doubtless caused damage and expense and needs to be punished, but not disproportionately.

First of all, i'm not to good on english, but i'll be short, or try.
It's just sad to read the comments being so agressive about Gary.
Its like the 'gray' stuff said in one comment. The people are too 'black' or 'white', right or wrong, and sometimes, the things aren't like this.
Ok, he commit a 'crime', "isn't because the door of your home are open, that anyone can enter at your house".
But, for god's sake, wasn't a cruel one. Be severe whit this poor bastard will really be a good example? The question here isn't the merety of the sentence, but the sentence itself. What he did was a 'political crime', that doesn't cause real damage to anyone, just shame to the US.
He deserves a punishment? yes, but a equivalent for what he done, not a 75yr jail one, and just being condemmed to stay away from computers, its enough for him, because this is his job, and stay away from the machines will bring enough problems to him. He plays with computers, and now he doesn't have anynome the toys, simple like that.
Conclusion: in this line of judgment, for example, if you can't get a job, are very poor, you family don't eat for days, and in desperation you steal a chicken, for eat... you'll be condemmed like a bank robber.
Or you commit the crime, or not, without but's.
Is this the real model of democracy that we want?